2018 Playoffs Thread

[taz02]

In watching GS v Rockets you have to wonder how GS would match up against a 7'1" guy like Ayton. Green gives up 6 inches.

If Ayton pans out, 25 and 12 ish, teams will have to make major adjustments.

 

[Bufalay]

How do you figure??

Chris Paul has to play like he did tonight though if the Rockets want to have a chance to win the series.

He was great in the first half but he didn’t drive much in the second half and his D was pretty bad.

 

[Bufalay]

Anyone else notice how good Gerald green’s defense was? I’ve never seen anyone stay with curry and Thompson the way he did.

 

[Russ Smith]

Steve Kerr blames the loss on fatigue...what a crock of **** .

Curry was clearly gassed you could see it after his red hot 3rd he missed like 5 in a row including a completely unguarded 3 in the 4th that he almost always makes. But in general yeah it's an excuse. The real issue was without Iggy they had to play Livingston and young more, and Looney. Looney played ok got in foul trouble, but Liivingston and Young were awful, -15 and -14 for them last night.

 

[Russ Smith]

In watching GS v Rockets you have to wonder how GS would match up against a 7'1" guy like Ayton. Green gives up 6 inches.

If Ayton pans out, 25 and 12 ish, teams will have to make major adjustments.

And at the other end who would Ayton guard? That's the rub, he's terrific on offense but the question is in the modern NBA can he guard against teams that don't play a C.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And at the other end who would Ayton guard? That's the rub, he's terrific on offense but the question is in the modern NBA can he guard against teams that don't play a C.

I think he’s got just enough mobility that with proper coaching he could be “hidden” on draymond. Would he shut him down? Likely not, but I think with seasoning the scales would tip in favor of Ayton in that matchup. Besides, who is the fifth player in the court with klay, Curry, green, and Durant? Iggy? He doesn’t pose enough of a threat any longer to worry about Ayton not being able to cover him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

And at the other end who would Ayton guard? That's the rub, he's terrific on offense but the question is in the modern NBA can he guard against teams that don't play a C.

Ayton was guarding small fast players on the perimeter all year. I am not really worried about that. It’s his help defense that is the problem.

 

[elindholm]

Ayton was guarding small fast players on the perimeter all year. I am not really worried about that. It’s his help defense that is the problem.

I agree that Ayton will have to become a rim protector in order to be truly effective. There's no reason he shouldn't average at least two blocked shots per game, while altering several others.

 

[SirStefan32]

See, I look at mismatches differently than most people. Who cares who Ayton would guard? If Green drops 20 points on him, as long as Ayton drops 30 on Green, who cares? Mismatches are a good thing if you can exploit them better than the other guy.

 

[Folster]

I keep telling people that the pendulum has swung too far to the perimeter game in the NBA mostly do to lack of dominant big men.

Just think about how many dominant big men have been drafted after Shaq. I can only think of Duncan.

As a result everyone has moved to a perimeter oriented system. But now we've had an influx of young and talented offensive bigs like Towns, Embiid, Porzingis, Jokic, and hopefully Ayton. Once these guys hit their stride they are going to wreak havoc on these small ball line-ups. The NBA is going to have to adapt again.

We need to be able to see the future of the game. It's at a point now where nearly every possession is 3 point attempt. We need to be a contrarian to some extent. We can't just follow the Warriors and Rockets model.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think he’s got just enough mobility that with proper coaching he could be “hidden” on draymond. Would he shut him down? Likely not, but I think with seasoning the scales would tip in favor of Ayton in that matchup. Besides, who is the fifth player in the court with klay, Curry, green, and Durant? Iggy? He doesn’t pose enough of a threat any longer to worry about Ayton not being able to cover him.

Fair enough but that assumes Ayton actually guards Draymond or Iggy, in todays NBA they just run screen and roll and force the switch. Look how often Capela is guarding Klay or Steph on switches in this series for example. Look at how often Looney is guarding Harden. Ayton's a great athlete and he moves laterally VERY well for his size, but if you saw some of the games where he struggled it was because of that very thing and NBA teams do that to you over and over.

At the combine they were talking about Ayton and Schmitz said it was one game but if you'd never seen Ayton play before and all you saw was the Buffalo loss, you'd come away thinking how is he the #1 pick, he couldn't guard anybody from Buffalo in that game. He went on to say he loves Ayton and while he seemed to think Doncic might be the better player, he seems to really like Ayton too but that was his one concern the type of players Ayton could not guard in that game, are all over the NBA and teams are going to do to him what they do to Okafor. he did again say Ayton is MUCH better laterally than Okafor so he doesn't see Ayton having the huge issue Jalil does, but he does wonder how hard it's goign to be to play Ayton in certain situations.

Still you HAVE to pick him #1, no brainer IMO, but I do think it's going to be an issue.

 

[Russ Smith]

See, I look at mismatches differently than most people. Who cares who Ayton would guard? If Green drops 20 points on him, as long as Ayton drops 30 on Green, who cares? Mismatches are a good thing if you can exploit them better than the other guy.

Well it goes beyond that though it goes beyond the way the court spaces out. The reason Draymond at the 5 in the death lineup or Hampton 5 or whatever they want to call it works, is not Draymond's scoring, its' that it spreads out the defense because Draymond can defend the 5 and play the 1 on offense. They can let him handle the ball and distribute it and force you to try and guard 3 elite shooters, Durant, Klay and Steph, and you also have Iggy who's a terrific passer in his own right. That's why Houston went so small last night, Ariza was the tallest guy on the court they were playing Ariza, Tucker, Harden, Gordon and Paul. Now none of those guys can guard Ayton, but he probably can't guard any of them either same with the Warriors and they're going to pull him away from the basket so he can't just be a rim protector. He's athletic enough maybe he gets better at it, Capela certainly has, but Capela is just a naturally good shot blocker, so far Ayton hasn't shown that so he not only has to be able to guard in smaller lineups, he has to learn to rim protect.

again I love the guy I'd pick him #1, but I do think he's going to have problems against the same lineups every other big has problems with. There are very few Anthony Davis types who can guard in those lineups.

 

[Russ Smith]

I keep telling people that the pendulum has swung too far to the perimeter game in the NBA mostly do to lack of dominant big men.

Just think about how many dominant big men have been drafted after Shaq. I can only think of Duncan.

As a result everyone has moved to a perimeter oriented system. But now we've had an influx of young and talented offensive bigs like Towns, Embiid, Porzingis, Jokic, and hopefully Ayton. Once these guys hit their stride they are going to wreak havoc on these small ball line-ups. The NBA is going to have to adapt again.

We need to be able to see the future of the game. It's at a point now where nearly every possession is 3 point attempt. We need to be a contrarian to some extent. We can't just follow the Warriors and Rockets model.

That's a numbers game though, the reason it works for the Warriors and Rockets is they shoot 39% from 3 as a team and Iggy is the only guy who doesn't shoot at least 30% from 3(28). For Houston it's 36% overall and only Capela can't make 3's. With teams like that the 3 is not going away it's just a numbers game it makes more sense for them to shoot 3's than 2's. As they get older and those lineups break up then yes it might change. But then if you watch HS or college basketball you know the vast majority of the players are 3's and dunks and no midrange so I'm not sure it's going to change anytime soon. Trae Young is the product of watching Steph Curry, I think that will continue.

Elite bigs there will always be a place for and Ayton can definitely be an elite big.

 

[Folster]

That's a numbers game though, the reason it works for the Warriors and Rockets is they shoot 39% from 3 as a team and Iggy is the only guy who doesn't shoot at least 30% from 3(28). For Houston it's 36% overall and only Capela can't make 3's. With teams like that the 3 is not going away it's just a numbers game it makes more sense for them to shoot 3's than 2's. As they get older and those lineups break up then yes it might change. But then if you watch HS or college basketball you know the vast majority of the players are 3's and dunks and no midrange so I'm not sure it's going to change anytime soon. Trae Young is the product of watching Steph Curry, I think that will continue.

Elite bigs there will always be a place for and Ayton can definitely be an elite big.

I'm not saying the Suns will do it, but some team will have a dominant big and put together a Mike Fratello, slow it down and pound-it team and beat the crap out of these perimeter teams.

 

[Chaplin]

I keep telling people that the pendulum has swung too far to the perimeter game in the NBA mostly do to lack of dominant big men.

Just think about how many dominant big men have been drafted after Shaq. I can only think of Duncan.

As a result everyone has moved to a perimeter oriented system. But now we've had an influx of young and talented offensive bigs like Towns, Embiid, Porzingis, Jokic, and hopefully Ayton. Once these guys hit their stride they are going to wreak havoc on these small ball line-ups. The NBA is going to have to adapt again.

We need to be able to see the future of the game. It's at a point now where nearly every possession is 3 point attempt. We need to be a contrarian to some extent. We can't just follow the Warriors and Rockets model.

Not a knock on you, but it consistently makes me laugh just how much Anthony Davis gets ignored in conversations like this. As much as people love Embiid and Towns and Porzingis, Davis is still the best big man in the game today. He's constantly an afterthought.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Not a knock on you, but it consistently makes me laugh just how much Anthony Davis gets ignored in conversations like this. As much as people love Embiid and Towns and Porzingis, Davis is still the best big man in the game today. He's constantly an afterthought.

Well, the name of the team he plays for is the Pelicans. How can you take a Pelican seriously?

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[Folster]

Not a knock on you, but it consistently makes me laugh just how much Anthony Davis gets ignored in conversations like this. As much as people love Embiid and Towns and Porzingis, Davis is still the best big man in the game today. He's constantly an afterthought.

I knew I was leaving some one big off the list. I had him on a previous post in which I touched on the same topic. You're right, he's the best right now.

 

[Hoop Head]

Not a knock on you, but it consistently makes me laugh just how much Anthony Davis gets ignored in conversations like this. As much as people love Embiid and Towns and Porzingis, Davis is still the best big man in the game today. He's constantly an afterthought.

I don't think people deliberately ignore Davis but when mentioning young bigs he's usually skipped because he's been in the league for 6 years now. He's only 25 years old but until I looked that up now I thought he was closer to 30 like Durant, Harden, and Curry. He only turned 25 back in March also. Since he's been really good since he was drafted it's tough to believe that he's only 25 and closer in age to Embiid, Porzingis, and Towns than he is Westbrook, KD, etc.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Fair enough but that assumes Ayton actually guards Draymond or Iggy, in todays NBA they just run screen and roll and force the switch. Look how often Capela is guarding Klay or Steph on switches in this series for example. Look at how often Looney is guarding Harden. Ayton's a great athlete and he moves laterally VERY well for his size, but if you saw some of the games where he struggled it was because of that very thing and NBA teams do that to you over and over.

At the combine they were talking about Ayton and Schmitz said it was one game but if you'd never seen Ayton play before and all you saw was the Buffalo loss, you'd come away thinking how is he the #1 pick, he couldn't guard anybody from Buffalo in that game. He went on to say he loves Ayton and while he seemed to think Doncic might be the better player, he seems to really like Ayton too but that was his one concern the type of players Ayton could not guard in that game, are all over the NBA and teams are going to do to him what they do to Okafor. he did again say Ayton is MUCH better laterally than Okafor so he doesn't see Ayton having the huge issue Jalil does, but he does wonder how hard it's goign to be to play Ayton in certain situations.

Still you HAVE to pick him #1, no brainer IMO, but I do think it's going to be an issue.

That’s just always going to be case with switching. And it works the same way in the opposite. If curry gets switched into Ayton he’s going to get his lunch eaten repeatedly. And easily. If the warriors reaction is the required double team you’ve made the defense scramble thereby opening up a myriad of opportunities for everyone else in offense. And Ayton is a very good passer out of the post.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well it goes beyond that though it goes beyond the way the court spaces out. The reason Draymond at the 5 in the death lineup or Hampton 5 or whatever they want to call it works, is not Draymond's scoring, its' that it spreads out the defense because Draymond can defend the 5 and play the 1 on offense. They can let him handle the ball and distribute it and force you to try and guard 3 elite shooters, Durant, Klay and Steph, and you also have Iggy who's a terrific passer in his own right. That's why Houston went so small last night, Ariza was the tallest guy on the court they were playing Ariza, Tucker, Harden, Gordon and Paul. Now none of those guys can guard Ayton, but he probably can't guard any of them either same with the Warriors and they're going to pull him away from the basket so he can't just be a rim protector. He's athletic enough maybe he gets better at it, Capela certainly has, but Capela is just a naturally good shot blocker, so far Ayton hasn't shown that so he not only has to be able to guard in smaller lineups, he has to learn to rim protect.

again I love the guy I'd pick him #1, but I do think he's going to have problems against the same lineups every other big has problems with. There are very few Anthony Davis types who can guard in those lineups.

While draymond “can” guard the 5 the current league doesn’t put an effective stressor on him doing so because there haven’t been dominant centers. When he’s guarding a Tyson chandler the warriors are fine. But if they have contend with a dominant center surrounded by talent (so more than just the pelicans) I think we will see draymond a little more exposed.

And if the rockets want to throw that squad out against Ayton I’m all for it. I have no problem putting Ayton on pj Tucker.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's a numbers game though, the reason it works for the Warriors and Rockets is they shoot 39% from 3 as a team and Iggy is the only guy who doesn't shoot at least 30% from 3(28). For Houston it's 36% overall and only Capela can't make 3's. With teams like that the 3 is not going away it's just a numbers game it makes more sense for them to shoot 3's than 2's. As they get older and those lineups break up then yes it might change. But then if you watch HS or college basketball you know the vast majority of the players are 3's and dunks and no midrange so I'm not sure it's going to change anytime soon. Trae Young is the product of watching Steph Curry, I think that will continue.

Elite bigs there will always be a place for and Ayton can definitely be an elite big.

But there’s only one Trae coming out. So how big of a trend is it really?

 

[Russ Smith]

But there’s only one Trae coming out. So how big of a trend is it really?

Yeah there's not 50 of them no but the kids coming up focus almost exclusively on 3's and at the rim, that's why when you see someone with a midrange game now it's considered rare. Most colleges now are playing 4 out 1 in or even 5 out 0 in some of the times, there's just not that many teams out there who play a true high/low game anymore.

I know we can argue about coaching and in a single elimination anything is possible but Arizona had Ayton AND another 7 footer and still lost to a team that started 4 guards and for most of the game had a 6'8" guy who's really about 6'5" as their tallest player and yet they actually outrebounded Arizona by spreading the court. I said all year I thought arizona should only play Ayton and bring Ristic off teh bench for better defense, but I think it's sort of a function of how the game has gone. Nova has won 2 of the last 3 in college basically without a true post player. The Warriors won 2 out of 3 without a real post and Cleveland won the other one without a real post.

I fully believe the Suns should pick Ayton and I think he'll probably be a perennial all star, but I don't think it's clear he's going to be as dominant as guys like Duncan, Shaq etc were despite maybe being as talented as they are(and a better shooter). I think the way the game is played now will play a limiting role in that.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sounds like Klay will play tonight but not looking positive for Iggy right now. Kerr said Klay looks good he thinks he'll be fine, with Iggy he said he's doing some things in workouts but right now he's limited and he's not sure if he's going to play or not.

 

[Hoop Head]

Starting Igudola was a mistake, IMO. Everyone knew they'd got with the "Hampton 5" lineup for a good portion of the Rockets series but keeping up a consistency and chemistry with a typical starting 5, either with McGee, Pachulia, or Looney would have helped keep the wear on AI down and it also would have allowed them to rest their other starter a little more by having him as an option to sub in early for anyone, rather than how their substitution pattern has been, which has been inconsistent and lacking a pattern really.

I could have seen going with that starting 5 later in the series if they fell behind but if this gets drug out to 7 games, I think how they used Iggy will be a factor in it being stretched out.

 

[leclerc]

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/05/2...ow-much-do-they-have-left-in-tank-for-game-5/

Dantoni doing his thing...