Amare to opt out if suns dont give MAX

dreamcastrocks

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it would be much different. one of the differences would be that kobe/lebron would (a) draw many more fouls than does nash, (b) require doubleteams MORE than amare, which would free up amare for even BETTER looks, and (c) are much more dominant scorers who can get their own shots AT WILL (though admittedly this is kobe more than nash, though with lebron you would get a boon on the boards, a weak point with the suns). i don't understand how you could think this team WOULDN'T be better with them over nash. particularly going forward.

Teams generally don't get better from the exclusion of Nash. It isn't a coincidence that players have career numbers playing along side of Nash. The more you go forward, with Nash's age, you'd have to say that LeBron would be better on this team. LeBron would not have beaten Kobe's lakers on this team. Offense wasn't a problem this series. Even the defense on Kobe was about as good as you can expect it to be.
 

Cheesebeef

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Teams generally don't get better from the exclusion of Nash. It isn't a coincidence that players have career numbers playing along side of Nash. The more you go forward, with Nash's age, you'd have to say that LeBron would be better on this team. LeBron would not have beaten Kobe's lakers on this team. Offense wasn't a problem this series.

I think it's simplistic to say that because we scored a lot points (below our average for the playoffs/season) that offense wasn't a problem. This team got down HUGE so many times because the Lakers were able to stop Nash's dribble penetration which left us having to dig out of 14-18 point deficits in every game we lost. There's no one that could stop a pick and roll of LeBron and Amare. And LeBron's rebounding sure as hell would have helped us as well.

Even the defense on Kobe was about as good as you can expect it to be.

No it wasn't. I love how hard Hill tried to play Kobe, but Kobe ABUSED him and everyone else. The Defense in the Finals has shown to be MUCH better and that's just Tony Allen/Ray Allen on Kobe. Bron would have given him the same type of fits.
 

Covert Rain

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Amare is about due for another mircofracture...thats a fact. Its not WILD speculation either...That procedure only lasts 6-8 years..Then when he needs it done again he's out another 18 months. Let some other team deal with it.

It is wild speculation. This is not the old micro-fracture surgery. Supposedly, Amare, Kidd and couple others had a new version of the surgery. KTAR interviewed Amare's surgeon who said that they have no idea how long it will last and there was no timetable. He also said it is possible it could last the duration of his career.

Amare, Kidd and others have shown no sign of deterioration in the surgically repaired knees.

So agreed he eventually will need another surgery but saying it will be in the next few years is pure speculation.
 
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Cheesebeef

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We cant have a powerforward that cant defend, slacks on the boards, and passes the ball like he has his eyes shut. He had three stinking assists for the entire Lakers series.

this is really the sad truth of it. He's a PF who can't defend, rebounds when he wants to and is an medicore-bad passer. You just can't give that guy 22 million dollars a year.
 

jibikao

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Management will make the best decision here. If they believe the team with one year more maturation and a little roster twist regarding the bench, I predict they'd do whatever to keep Amare. Otherwise, just start rebuilding by sending off Nash. At least, jRich has gotten some very good trade value in between.

I don't understand why you keep wanting to ship Nash off. To where? Nash isn't even close to max. contract and I have a feeling when his contract expires, he'll agree to sign less and stay here and retire. Nash has said that he wants to retire in Phoenix. Nash isn't the one asking for HUGE amount of money. For the amount of money Suns has paid, I think Suns got a GREAT DEAL out of it. Nash isn't Top 30 paid player but I think Nash is at least Top 30 player.

I know you don't like Nash that much. I've read many of your posts. Why can't Nash stay in Suns and be Dragic's mentor later?

Who is Amare going to mentor?? Frye?? Amare is not a very skillful player. He relies heavily on his athleticism to score and that is never a good way for long term success. I think giving him a MAX deal is ok but 6-year is not ok. 6-year is way too long. 4-year max.
 

Cheesebeef

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if I were the Suns, I'd try to give Amare the same deal that the Lakers just gave Pau. A 3 year extension for 66 million bones. That way, he's still got in essence a 4 year 84 million dollar contract in front of him with next year's 18 million coming to him and leaves him open for more huge pay-day. Anything more than that and I fear we're gonna be crippled for a looooooooooong time with a guy who doesn't bring it every night and has injury problems throughout his career.
 

elindholm

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Because many, MANY more people that you think should be, are considered max players in the NBA. It's just a fact.

This just gets back to the same confusion with "max." In fact, no, there are very few players in the league who are going to be earning what Stoudemire would get with a maximum extension. Here is the list of the league's top salaries now, per hoopshype:

1. McGrady, $23.2 million, expiring, obviously not going to get that kind of money again
2. Bryant, 23.0, recently extended
3. J. O'Neal, 23.0, expiring
4. Duncan, 22.2, two years left
5. S. O'Neal, 20.0, expiring
6t. Nowitzki, 19.8, opting out
6t. Pierce, 19.8, one year left
8. Allen, 19.8, expiring
9. Lewis, 18.9, goes on forever
10. Redd, 17.0, one year left
11t. Gasol, 16.5, recently extended
11t. Kirilenko, 16.5, one year left
13. Garnett, 16.4, two years left
14t. Stoudemire, 16.4, opting out
14t. Yao, 16.4, one year left

Here's the thing about "max" contracts: The higher your salary already is, the bigger a contract you can get. That means that a maximum deal for Stoudemire is larger than for anyone who isn't on this list. It's larger than one for James, or Wade, or Howard, or Bosh, or Paul, or Durant, or Deron Williams. And those players cannot ever catch up to him in terms of salary, because he has seniority on them, so he has already played his way into a higher salary tier.

Now let's look more carefully at the list. Of all of the players currently above Stoudemire, all are up by 2012, except for these:

Kobe Bryant
Rashard Lewis
Pau Gasol

There's one other big name who will probably get a new maximum deal, and that's Nowitzki. The rest have seen their last big contract.

I have news for you. In the 2012-13 season, those three plus Nowitzki are your four highest paid players in the league, right there. Nothing can be done to change this. Their contracts are guaranteed and no one can catch them.

If you give Stoudemire a maximum extension, he becomes fifth on the list, right behind Gasol. He'll be the fifth-highest paid player in the entire league by 2012-13. (Yao could get an identical deal if he opts out this summer, which he probably won't.) Again, no one can catch him -- not James, not Wade, not Durant -- no one.

So it's not just a question of putting Stoudemire in the same "max" category as players like Roy or Boozer or Joe Johnson. It's a question of giving him one of the top five salaries in the league for 2012-13. And the year after that. And the year after that.

Let's look at that list a little more. Bryant is the best player in the league. Nowitzki is a former MVP and still in his prime. Gasol isn't quite at that level, but his value goes up as long as he is Bryant's teammate, plus the Lakers can afford whatever they want anyway.

That leaves Lewis. Now, I know there was a big argument about whether his contract is "crippling" the Magic, which went nowhere because people couldn't agree on what "crippled" meant. But we can agree on this: Lewis's contract is very bad for the Magic. It has already made them less competitive, and it's only going to get worse. They had a payroll of $82 million this year and made only the conference finals. If they want to field a team for 2010-11 that isn't worse than this year's, they'll have to spend even more. Unless their ownership has unlimited resources, they can tolerate this kind of deficit spending for only another couple of years before they'll have to pull the plug. And then they'll still be stuck with Lewis!

It is absolutely irresponsible and incorrect to look at Stoudemire's potential situation with the Suns, shrug "Well everyone does it," and not anticipate the dire consequences. Number 1, no, not everyone does it -- we're talking about giving Stoudemire a top-five salary for the next several years. And number 2, overpaying players does come back and haunt the teams that do it, usually sooner rather than later.
 
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AzStevenCal

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It is absolutely irresponsible and incorrect to look at Stoudemire's potential situation with the Suns, shrug "Well everyone does it," and not anticipate the dire consequences. Number 1, no, not everyone does it -- we're talking about giving Stoudemire a top-five salary for the next several years. And number 2, overpaying players does come back and haunt the teams that do it, usually sooner rather than later.

Excellent post. Sums it up nicely.

Steve
 

Cheesebeef

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I think it's going to be fascinating to see where Amare ends up and who actually gives him the ridiculous coin/years he's looking for. I don't think Riley will do it. He's got Boozer as a slam dunk fall back who won't command top top dollar and might leave them wiggle room to actually sign someone else to play with him and Wade. I also don't think he's going anywhere with Bron because I have a feeling that Bosh and Bron end up together... so that leaves... where? The Nets? I could see that crazy gagillionaire throwing MAX at Amare and then Amare being in a wasteland forever. I'd be okay with that.
 

jibikao

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This just gets back to the same confusion with "max." In fact, no, there are very few players in the league who are going to be earning what Stoudemire would get with a maximum extension. Here is the list of the league's top salaries now, per hoopshype:

1. McGrady, $23.2 million, expiring, obviously not going to get that kind of money again
2. Bryant, 23.0, recently extended
3. J. O'Neal, 23.0, expiring
4. Duncan, 22.2, two years left
5. S. O'Neal, 20.0, expiring
6t. Nowitzki, 19.8, opting out
6t. Pierce, 19.8, one year left
8. Allen, 19.8, expiring
9. Lewis, 18.9, goes on forever
10. Redd, 17.0, one year left
11t. Gasol, 16.5, recently extended
11t. Kirilenko, 16.5, one year left
13. Garnett, 16.4, two years left
14t. Stoudemire, 16.4, opting out
14t. Yao, 16.4, one year left

I want McGrady's agent!!! Damn... this list only reminds me of how some of the players shouldn't even belong to Top 15 but they appear on it because of long-term contract. McGrady hasn't performed well for the past 3 years?

We'll be seeing Amare in Top 5 when he is sitting on the bench with injuries after 3 years. Mark my word.
 

82CardsGrad

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this is really the sad truth of it. He's a PF who can't defend, rebounds when he wants to and is an medicore-bad passer. You just can't give that guy 22 million dollars a year.

if I were the Suns, I'd try to give Amare the same deal that the Lakers just gave Pau. A 3 year extension for 66 million bones. That way, he's still got in essence a 4 year 84 million dollar contract in front of him with next year's 18 million coming to him and leaves him open for more huge pay-day. Anything more than that and I fear we're gonna be crippled for a looooooooooong time with a guy who doesn't bring it every night and has injury problems throughout his career.

Ditto on both these posts...
 

AzStevenCal

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I don't understand why you keep wanting to ship Nash off. To where? Nash isn't even close to max. contract and I have a feeling when his contract expires, he'll agree to sign less and stay here and retire. Nash has said that he wants to retire in Phoenix. Nash isn't the one asking for HUGE amount of money. For the amount of money Suns has paid, I think Suns got a GREAT DEAL out of it. Nash isn't Top 30 paid player but I think Nash is at least Top 30 player.

I know you don't like Nash that much. I've read many of your posts. Why can't Nash stay in Suns and be Dragic's mentor later?

I'm a Nash fan and I'd trade him if Amare walks. And it wouldn't be because I'm unhappy with him. With Amare gone we're likely going nowhere and this is perhaps the last chance we'll have to trade Steve for value. I'd probably think long and hard about keeping him though if it was not possible to separate amicably. He's given a lot to this franchise and we certainly don't need the black eye we'd earn by shipping him out against his will.

As for earning his money, I think Nash could play horribly for 10 more years at his current salary and still be worth the money the Suns have spent on him. That isn't the problem. I believe he's on the downward slide and I'd wager it's going to be a quick descent. I just don't think he has much left although he could probably give you a good 20/25 minutes a night 2 or occasionally 3 times a week for a few more years. With Amare next to him it might be worth the gamble but not if Stat is gone.

Steve
 

joshstmarie

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1.) Steve Nash's teams have proved time and time again that they can win w/o Amare.

2.) I keep seeing people talk about Nash slowing down and always wonder if its something I'm not seeing or maybe I just need to adjust my Nash goggles. So I look at his stats and see that he had a better year statistically than he did in 04-05 and more productive now than any year he had in dallas.

People have been preaching about this big drop off from nash for 3 years now and its a big load of crap. Its not happening. Yes it will happen sooner than later but there is no reason to believe he cant give us another solid (and by solid I mean border line all-star) 2-4 years. I can only imagine what jazz fans would have been like if there were message boards around when stockton was playing.

*Year 10 - "Well its time we start drafting for a new PG, with all these playoff games and the fact that he's hardly missed any time, ole stocktons about the kick the bucket any day now."

*Year 14/15 - "See I knew it. This guy is clearly washed up, hes missed like 80 games over the past two seasons. Hes a broken down old man. Ship his ass out so he can win a championship somewhere else. Love the guy but HES DONE!"

*Years 16/17/18/19 328/328 games played - "#$%@ it, I give up"
 

AfroSuns

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1.) Steve Nash's teams have proved time and time again that they can win w/o Amare.

Dont you think with the LA, Thunder, Portland of today is a better team than when we got to the WCF without Amare. This are not the Clippers of 06/07 and a Smush Parker led Lakers.
 

AzStevenCal

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2.) I keep seeing people talk about Nash slowing down and always wonder if its something I'm not seeing or maybe I just need to adjust my Nash goggles. So I look at his stats and see that he had a better year statistically than he did in 04-05 and more productive now than any year he had in dallas.

Out of curiosity, how many Suns games did you watch this year? Nash, at times, was absolutely incredible. For the first 6 weeks of the season he played like he was clearly the best PG in the game. After that, though, he had a lot of bad games. Not necessarily statistically, but during that stretch with the stomach tear as often as not he played like one of the worst PG's in the game. Plus, he also struggled in games where his hip and/or back troubled him.

Those of us that think he is on a steady or even rapid decline point to the injuries and the bad games that accompanied them. I guess others here focus more on what he did when healthy. I'm not sure who is right but for my money we're well into the beginning of the end with the guy. On the plus side, he's a class act and leads as well by example as anyone and he's still reasonably priced. If Amare is here for 3 more years I'd keep Nash and I'd limit his days and his minutes but otherwise I'd try to move him while he still has trade value.

Steve
 

joshstmarie

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Dont you think with the LA, Thunder, Portland of today is a better team than when we got to the WCF without Amare. This are not the Clippers of 06/07 and a Smush Parker led Lakers.

We got a good draw both those years no doubt. The fact is, that we still made it there w/o him. This isnt a small sample we are talking about here, its like over a season and a half with a deep playoff run. You really cant argue against the numbers.
 

Cheesebeef

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1.) Steve Nash's teams have proved time and time again that they can win w/o Amare.

time and time again... they won one year, when the West was so pathetic a 46 win Clipper team had the fourth best record.

I can only imagine what jazz fans would have been like if there were message boards around when stockton was playing.

I'm sure they were just fine with him leading them to back to back Finals when he was Nash's age.
 

Cheesebeef

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We got a good draw both those years no doubt. The fact is, that we still made it there w/o him. This isnt a small sample we are talking about here, its like over a season and a half with a deep playoff run. You really cant argue against the numbers.

it wasn't about a good draw... it was about a bad conference. The conference is much better now so what we did 4 years ago is irrelevent.
 

Mainstreet

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1.) Steve Nash's teams have proved time and time again that they can win w/o Amare.

2.) I keep seeing people talk about Nash slowing down and always wonder if its something I'm not seeing or maybe I just need to adjust my Nash goggles. So I look at his stats and see that he had a better year statistically than he did in 04-05 and more productive now than any year he had in dallas.

People have been preaching about this big drop off from nash for 3 years now and its a big load of crap. Its not happening. Yes it will happen sooner than later but there is no reason to believe he cant give us another solid (and by solid I mean border line all-star) 2-4 years. I can only imagine what jazz fans would have been like if there were message boards around when stockton was playing.

*Year 10 - "Well its time we start drafting for a new PG, with all these playoff games and the fact that he's hardly missed any time, ole stocktons about the kick the bucket any day now."

*Year 14/15 - "See I knew it. This guy is clearly washed up, hes missed like 80 games over the past two seasons. Hes a broken down old man. Ship his ass out so he can win a championship somewhere else. Love the guy but HES DONE!"

*Years 16/17/18/19 328/328 games played - "#$%@ it, I give up"

I think this is an accurate assessment about Nash. The Suns weakness is not having enough inside strength at center and power forward. The Lakers series clearly revealed this flaw. I think some fans will only appreciate what Nash has contributed to the Suns when he is gone.
 

joshstmarie

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time and time again... they won one year, when the West was so pathetic a 46 win Clipper team had the fourth best record.
So thats the suns fault? Everytime Amare has gone down the suns have kept the course.

How many games does steve nash need to win w/o amare to prove that he can keep the team competitive?
 

joshstmarie

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Out of curiosity, how many Suns games did you watch this year? Nash, at times, was absolutely incredible. For the first 6 weeks of the season he played like he was clearly the best PG in the game. After that, though, he had a lot of bad games. Not necessarily statistically, but during that stretch with the stomach tear as often as not he played like one of the worst PG's in the game. Plus, he also struggled in games where his hip and/or back troubled him.

My guesstimate, including the playoffs would be about 30-40 games, so I probably never saw the extreme valleys and peaks that everyone else did. I will admit at one point last year 08/09 I thought Nash had really fallen off. But I began to see that its these injurys that he just shrugs off and plays through have a HUGE impact on his game. When hes 95-100% healthy he always reverts back to the "old" steve nash, but he never lets us know when hes REALLY hurting so people just assume since hes 36 he MUST be declining by default.
 

slinslin

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Nash hasn't been the best PG in the game at all this season even in the first half of the season or so.

Defense is part of the game as well and those who apply that to Amare need to apply it to Nash as well.

I'd easily take Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Rajon Rondo over Nash right now and obviously for the future.

Nash wasn't very good against the Lakers in my opinion. We needed him to light up Fisher but he struggled most of the time. The same Fisher who was a liability against Westbrook.
 

AzStevenCal

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Nash hasn't been the best PG in the game at all this season even in the first half of the season or so.

Defense is part of the game as well and those who apply that to Amare need to apply it to Nash as well.

Well, this is a road I didn't intend to travel when I said Nash was the best PG in the game. First off, it was for the first 6 weeks and you'd be hard pressed to disprove that even if you consider his defense. The other PG's you mentioned just were not playing as well as Steve at that time.

Secondly, my real point is that, except when injured, Nash still plays at the same high level that won him MVP's. The problem is that he played injured in probably 30 games this season and was a real liability in many of those games, offensively and defensively. As for the Lakers series, Nash has always struggled against players that get to bump him and swat at his wrists without consequence and Fisher and the Lakers are very good at doing just that.

Steve
 

Cheesebeef

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So thats the suns fault?

no. but it's a fact that the conference was weaker back then which our team took advantage of. It's much tougher now and I don't think the team's past performance woudl be indicative of much against completely revamped/improved competition.

Everytime Amare has gone down the suns have kept the course.

you keep saying "everytime" but it happened once and I (and many others) have given our reasons why that one time might not be indicative of how it will play out in the future, ESPECIALLY in light of Nash's increased age and the propensity for his injuries which dogged him on and off all year, something that comes with age.

How many games does steve nash need to win w/o amare to prove that he can keep the team competitive?

you're living in the past. And while Nash may keep us "competitive", that's just not good enough for me. I don't want to be a one and done playoff team. I don't want to be the Jazz post 1999 when they clung to an aging Stockton and Malone forever and only got better once they bottom'ed out, got struck gold in the lottery and freed up cap space to make them relevant again.
 

Cheesebeef

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I think this is an accurate assessment about Nash. The Suns weakness is not having enough inside strength at center and power forward. The Lakers series clearly revealed this flaw. I think some fans will only appreciate what Nash has contributed to the Suns when he is gone.

you can appreciate what Nash contributes while also realizing we don't have inside strength at PF/C and there aren't really ways to for us to get them, especially if Amare leave. Thus it's time to call it a day on the era... which has never even gotten us to the Finals.
 

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