Anyone here still believe in Alex Len?

[JCSunsfan]

Just wondering what your present evaluations are of him. What do you want to see from him this year?

I want to see the following things:

1. Minutes. The ability to get time on the floor without being hampered by injuries foul problems.
2. Defense. I want to see him block shots, alter shots, and block the path to the rim. He does not have to be the best in the league or anything, just not passive defensively. There should be some sort of presence.
3. Rebounding. I would like to see above .25 boards per minute. .3 would be preferable.
4. Pick and roll. I would like to see him start to develop a decent pick and roll game with at least one of our pg's. It doesn't have to be a staple of the offense, but it has to work on a consistent basis.

 

[Chaplin]

My question would be why anyone in the right mind would NOT believe he still has potential for improvement. A single year after ankle surgery and you're asking if anyone has given up on him? I'd question anyone who says that the verdict is already out on him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Since you said "still believe" I'd expect the answer to be a unanimous yes (it won't be but I think it should be). But there are a lot of people that never believed in him and we've certainly seen nothing to date that would change that opinion. But it's far too early to jump off the LenWagon unless you're doing it based solely on the surgery he had last offseason.

Steve

 

[JS22]

Len was an extremely raw prospect in a terrible draft. If he can put it together it's going to be a huge luxury having a 7'2 center that can move.

The only other player that you can argue the Suns should have drafted instead is Noel. But I still don't trust his knee / frame. He's going to get killed unless he puts on weight.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Since you said "still believe" I'd expect the answer to be a unanimous yes (it won't be but I think it should be). But there are a lot of people that never believed in him and we've certainly seen nothing to date that would change that opinion. But it's far too early to jump off the LenWagon unless you're doing it based solely on the surgery he had last offseason.

Steve

I'm in this camp, but hope to be proven wrong.

 

[devilalum]

Players over 7 feet tall rarely make any impact in their first season, especially ones that are injured, young and had limited college play. I hope we see some growth this year but I don't expect him to make a huge impact.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Players over 7 feet tall rarely make any impact in their first season, especially ones that are injured, young and had limited college play. I hope we see some growth this year but I don't expect him to make a huge impact.

Agreed. I wasn't overly impressed with him last season but I did see some positives, especially in the way he moved (when he knew where to go) and his physicality. If he becomes a great player we become a great team. I don't know if that will ever happen but it's not likely to happen this season.

Steve

 

[ProdigalSun]

If he can stay healthy the whole year and contribute solid minutes on the defensive end this year i'll be ecstatic

 

[Phrazbit]

Since you said "still believe" I'd expect the answer to be a unanimous yes (it won't be but I think it should be). But there are a lot of people that never believed in him and we've certainly seen nothing to date that would change that opinion. But it's far too early to jump off the LenWagon unless you're doing it based solely on the surgery he had last offseason.

Steve

Exactly. My opinion of his has not changed, but it was negative to begin with. So I guess I technically "still believe", just not in the manner the title suggests. Hopefully he shows something different this year though.

 

[sunsfan88]

My question would be why anyone in the right mind would NOT believe he still has potential for improvement. A single year after ankle surgery and you're asking if anyone has given up on him? I'd question anyone who says that the verdict is already out on him.

^this.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have never stopped believing in Alex Len. It is way too early in the process to give up hope on a 21 year old center.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

As I've said many times on here, I still really believe that Len will be a solid 20-25 minute player this season and eventually, a really good 2-way player that can score effectively, defend, rebound, and protect the rim.

I really think THIS season Len will have a bigger impact than a lot of people think. I think his defense is further along than people give him credit for. Many times last year he would play 5 minutes a game, sit a game, play another 7 ... It is very hard to show "good defense" for a rookie with that kind of minute schedule. I think once Len gets into a consistent rhythm w/ his playing time, which I expect to see this season, he will show more of what he can do.

Rookies improve a ton going into their 2nd year. Even though he didn't get a lot of minutes last year, he still got enough. Len's main issue on the court last year I felt was his feel and just being comfortable doing pretty much everything. Comfort is something that can easily and very quickly I believe be corrected because it's all about confidence.

Basically I believe "rust" was a major issue for him last year (Which can be corrected easily through just a little experience and consistent PT) , not him being "raw" (Which can not be corrected easily and takes a lot of time). This is an interesting argument I think.

For ex., when he was too slow rotating to help and fouled the offensive player in a random game, I believe this was because he was not in a rhythm of playing and was "rusty" both mentally and physically ... Other people may have, and still do, interpret that sort of play as him being "raw" and not realizing that he had to rotate sooner. If it was "rawness", it may not be corrected this season. If it was him being "rusty", it can easily be corrected and that's what I think it was in this made up example.

 

[Errntknght]

I still believe he's going to be the best C we've ever had. He has the physical tools to be great but he's a long ways off mentally. His instincts are poor but good habits can be learned and they're almost as valuable as instincts. He needs lots of playing time for that and I say, fouls be damned. I'd much rather see him sitting on the bench because he fouled out than because he might foul out - its a better way of motivating him to adjust his play so as to foul less.

Naturally he needs to learn to be an effective paint/rim protector, but I think its counter productive to force too much of that on him now. It involves lots of decision making, and thats where he falters. I'd give him the most challenging opponents to defend 1 on 1 because the decision making if much reduced so his chances of succeeding are improved. For a newbie in the league a measure of success is a great overall motivator - you itch to get out on the floor and get more of it. The NBA season is so long, you need something to keep you excited about playing.
If he has to guard some PF's to get the best challenge, that's all the better! He and Plums are our two bigs with the most potential so I'd be tickled to see them able to play together a good bit - and I think Alex is more likely do well at PF than Miles. Together they may be able to reduce the pressure on each other when it comes to rebounding and defense.

As far as the pick and roll goes, I'd like to see Len working an the pick & pop a good bit.

 

[SirStefan32]

As I've said many times on here, I still really believe that Len will be a solid 20-25 minute player this season and eventually, a really good 2-way player that can score effectively, defend, rebound, and protect the rim.

I really think THIS season Len will have a bigger impact than a lot of people think. I think his defense is further along than people give him credit for. Many times last year he would play 5 minutes a game, sit a game, play another 7 ... It is very hard to show "good defense" for a rookie with that kind of minute schedule. I think once Len gets into a consistent rhythm w/ his playing time, which I expect to see this season, he will show more of what he can do.

Rookies improve a ton going into their 2nd year. Even though he didn't get a lot of minutes last year, he still got enough. Len's main issue on the court last year I felt was his feel and just being comfortable doing pretty much everything. Comfort is something that can easily and very quickly I believe be corrected because it's all about confidence.

Basically I believe "rust" was a major issue for him last year (Which can be corrected easily through just a little experience and consistent PT) , not him being "raw" (Which can not be corrected easily and takes a lot of time). This is an interesting argument I think.

For ex., when he was too slow rotating to help and fouled the offensive player in a random game, I believe this was because he was not in a rhythm of playing and was "rusty" both mentally and physically ... Other people may have, and still do, interpret that sort of play as him being "raw" and not realizing that he had to rotate sooner. If it was "rawness", it may not be corrected this season. If it was him being "rusty", it can easily be corrected and that's what I think it was in this made up example.

No, it is not. His defense is atrocious.
He is tall and has long arms, so he can contest shots in a way that no other player on the Suns' roster can, but that's a very different thing than being a good defender.

Also, it is not "rust" with Len, it's lack of experience, and lack of understanding of the game. This is not surprising for a youngster who only started playing ball in his late teens, but that's a different argument. To be "rusty" one must be good at something to begin with.

For example, I have not been to a shooting range in almost 4 months, so my shooting is probably a little rusty. I also haven't played my guitar in a while, but I am not rusty- I just never got really good at it. Next time I go to the range, I will be a bit rusty, but the next time I pick up my guitar, I will simply not be very good because I never got much further than "OK/ decent" in the first place.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

No, it is not. His defense is atrocious.
He is tall and has long arms, so he can contest shots in a way that no other player on the Suns' roster can, but that's a very different thing than being a good defender.

Also, it is not "rust" with Len, it's lack of experience, and lack of understanding of the game. This is not surprising for a youngster who only started playing ball in his late teens, but that's a different argument. To be "rusty" one must be good at something to begin with.

For example, I have not been to a shooting range in almost 4 months, so my shooting is probably a little rusty. I also haven't played my guitar in a while, but I am not rusty- I just never got really good at it. Next time I go to the range, I will be a bit rusty, but the next time I pick up my guitar, I will simply not be very good because I never got much further than "OK/ decent" in the first place.

I know what "rust" and "raw" means. You don't have to give me an example.

Some of it is "experience" sure. I agree there is some element of "rawness" to Len's game given his age Of course that's the case; I just think the amount has been exaggerated ... He is more developed and has better awareness than he showed in his spot minutes last year.

Just in a short sample size for example, Len started 3 games near the end of the season (Clippers, Thunder, then Warriors) - Len's awareness improved after each game (made less mistakes) and by the 3rd game it was obvious he was more "comfortable" after shaking off some rust. How do you explain that type of improvement just in 3 games? How was that not shaking off the rust and getting more comfortable? I just think you are overlooking how hard it is for any NBA player, let alone an NBA rookie, to have inconsistent minutes. It's just hard to get a good feel for the game.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not just making things up. People may think I'm biased since I'm a Maryland fan and watched Len in college, but his sophomore year in college he showed he was NOT raw. He rotated well defensively and was in general in the right positions on both ends. He was not as bad in terms of awareness / B-Ball IQ / "Feel" as he showed last year. He was "good at something to begin with" - Just because you didn't watch Len in college doesn't mean his play didn't exist. His per minute production rivaled the top big men in the country that year (Zeller, Noel, Plumlee).

There's not much more for me to say. I'll just say "wait and see" - If Len gets consistent minutes this year, he'll exceed your expectations and show a better "feel" / B-Ball IQ than you think he has.

 

[Phrazbit]

Well, you're definitely biased. You're only here because Len plays for the Suns and you post under "futuresuperstar". I don't think its unfair to think you have a bias towards Len.

But that does not automatically make you wrong. I was biased against Beasley, because I disliked the idea of cancerous, overrated, morons playing for my favorite team, but my biases all were proven to be well founded.

In this case though, I feel like you're wrong. Len was flat out awful last year, and every statisical measure backs that thought, watching him he looked even worse. He appears to be yet another guy who is in the league almost entirely because he is freakishly tall. Awful hands, terrible instincts. You mention his "improvement" and that he shook off the rust during 3 consecutive starts, but the opposite was true. His best game was the first (and it was not good) and he was worse the following 2 nights.

The team gave him all the minutes they reasonably could and for the most part his PT came in first halves, not garbage time. And rust or not, he was consistently a hindrance.

I hope he will improve, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Chaz]

I believe in Len. At least as much as I did before.
I think he has the talent and the work ethic to be one of the best centers in Suns history.

 

[Superbone]

I've seen him before. He's a real boy.

 

[elindholm]

I'd be surprised if anyone's opinion on Len could change based on last season. Those who think he just needs time to figure it out will continue to think that, and those who thought he was hopeless sure didn't see any evidence to the contrary. Has anyone moved from one camp to the other?

 

[az jam]

Not a Len fan, thought it was a bad pick in a poor draft.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'd be surprised if anyone's opinion on Len could change based on last season. Those who think he just needs time to figure it out will continue to think that, and those who thought he was hopeless sure didn't see any evidence to the contrary. Has anyone moved from one camp to the other?

Not I. However, I've always been in-between the two camps. I don't think he is going to be any good, but I am not ready to declare him a bust just yet. It will take another couple of years and injuries before we can officially declare him a bust.

Hell, Robin Lopez was terrible and he ended up being a nice role player. Maybe Len will too. Probably wishful thinking on my part.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Not I. However, I've always been in-between the two camps. I don't think he is going to be any good, but I am not ready to declare him a bust just yet. It will take another couple of years and injuries before we can officially declare him a bust.

Hell, Robin Lopez was terrible and he ended up being a nice role player. Maybe Len will too. Probably wishful thinking on my part.

I have higher hopes for Len than "nice role player" but like you, I'm not really in his camp. I just figure that the fact he was rumored to go first and that McDonough heavily scouted him in the past that he has star potential or something close to that. I haven't seen it but he really hasn't had a chance to shine just yet. I expect improvement this year but I wouldn't be surprised if it took a few more years for him to show us what he can do.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

I have higher hopes for Len than "nice role player" but like you, I'm not really in his camp. I just figure that the fact he was rumored to go first and that McDonough heavily scouted him in the past that he has star potential or something close to that. I haven't seen it but he really hasn't had a chance to shine just yet. I expect improvement this year but I wouldn't be surprised if it took a few more years for him to show us what he can do.

Steve

Oh I have higher hopes as well, but I am trying to keep my expectations low.
I am actually more concerned with injuries- big men with certain injuries scare me. We'll see how it turns out. The fact that McD pulled Plumlee out of nowhere really makes me not be too concerned about Len. Plumlee will be a nice player, so even if Len turns out to be a scrub, the Suns still ended up with one decent Center.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, you're definitely biased. You're only here because Len plays for the Suns and you post under "futuresuperstar". I don't think its unfair to think you have a bias towards Len.

But that does not automatically make you wrong. I was biased against Beasley, because I disliked the idea of cancerous, overrated, morons playing for my favorite team, but my biases all were proven to be well founded.

In this case though, I feel like you're wrong. Len was flat out awful last year, and every statisical measure backs that thought, watching him he looked even worse. He appears to be yet another guy who is in the league almost entirely because he is freakishly tall. Awful hands, terrible instincts. You mention his "improvement" and that he shook off the rust during 3 consecutive starts, but the opposite was true. His best game was the first (and it was not good) and he was worse the following 2 nights.

The team gave him all the minutes they reasonably could and for the most part his PT came in first halves, not garbage time. And rust or not, he was consistently a hindrance.

I hope he will improve, but I'm not holding my breath.

He's still a raw 7-footer. Those guys normally aren't superstars in their first year. Ryan and Babby have a pretty high success rate, there is no reason at this point to think this is an absolute failure.

I think your success on Beasley has made you overconfident in your own opinion.

 

[Phrazbit]

He's still a raw 7-footer. Those guys normally aren't superstars in their first year. Ryan and Babby have a pretty high success rate, there is no reason at this point to think this is an absolute failure.

I think your success on Beasley has made you overconfident in your own opinion.

I dont dislike the drafting of Len near as much as the signing of Sleazley, and its not guarantee he flops, like I was certain of Beasley's failure. But my issue with Len went beyond his failings last year, I watched him some in college and I never felt like I was watching an future NBA stud, in most of his college outings he looked like a non-prospect. A mediocre (college) player on the court because he was really really tall and moved decently for a guy his size.

I wish I had seen something last year to change that perception, but instead it only was reinforced.

I will admit, I did not want Beasley to succeed, I actively rooted against him (and I'm sure no one here is surprised by that admission). He was among my least liked players in the league before he ever joined the Suns. His signing signaled to me that Blanks was grossly inept and I wanted Beasley to go down in flames so we would be rid of that disastrous regime.

But I really do want Len to be good, it would be a huge boon to have a legit center. I'm not rooting for his failure, but his success seems very unlikely. So please prove me wrong Len. Please. I beg of you.