Cards sent pick to Pitt with Levi!!

[Mulli]

Still all speculation. None of this is known as fact. Except for maybe Exhibit D.

A?

 

[D-Dogg]

A?

Speculation that it's because Keim wants him to stay on the team. As I mentioned, there were tons of trade rumors late into preseason regarding RW...which are not floated by BA.

 

[daves]

I don't know if I think Keim is a fool, moron or incompetent, but for Keim to go into the season with an atrocious LT, who's been an atrocious LT the majority of his career and let the season ride on him is extremely questionable, even more so since he's been here to see him in person. It just becomes more questionable IMO when there were viable upgrades to be made in the off-season and even as late as last week and the GM did nothing about it.

Everything about this move and everything that BA and SK have said about it makes perfect sense to me, so i don't know where all the wild speculation and conspiracy theories are coming from.

It made NO sense for Keim to move Brown in the off season. First, he might've had EVEN LESS value because he'd just missed an entire year with an injury. Second, nearly everyone thought a big part of Brown and the rest of the OL's problems resulted from terrible coaching by Grimm. People would be lynching Keim on this board for giving up on Brown without at least giving BA a chance to coach him up. It made perfect sense to wait to see whether (a) he was fully recovered from his injury, and (b) the new staff could turn Brown into a competent left tackle.

After watching his film from 2011 (during the second half of which, i recall, Brown allowed zero sacks and was one of the higher rated tackles in the league), Arians expressed his opinion (and hope) (perhaps largely as a motivating tactic) that Brown is (or at least had the potential to be) "elite".

Then training camp and preseason happened. Next thing you know Brown was "no lock to start" and had to compete for his spot. Then the regular season came and Brown gave up three sacks vs. the Rams! By this point most likely Arians and his staff realized that Brown had reverted to the player he was his entire career up to the second half of his contract year.

At that point, it made sense to move him, if they could get anything of value in return. An upgraded draft pick is better than most would've expected. (While details haven't been released, it's crazy to believe that the return pick will be in the same round as the one given. Most likely in my opinion the Cardinals gave a 7th and will receive a conditional 6th or 5th in return. Has any team EVER traded for a pick in the same round, without knowing where the two teams would be picking in that round??)

Is Arians thrilled about it? Of course not. It's a small failure on the part of him and his staff that they were unable to get more out of Brown than Grimm did. Perhaps he even asked Keim to hold off on moving Brown. But beyond that, i see no evidence of a "rift". Nobody forced Arians to say that there was "no downside" to the trade and that "things couldn't get much worse." And Arians must've vouched to Keim for his new guy, Sowell.

As for cap ramifications, according to this article by Urban:

Brown was already going to cost $4.2 million in dead money (on his original signing bonus being pushed into next season) and the “new” bonus creates another $2.3M — totaling $6.5 million of “dead” Brown cap money in 2014. It lowered the cap hit the Cards are taking from Brown in 2013 by almost $3 million, however, creating more cap space if they want to re-sign anyone during the season.

So the Cardinals lose $2.3M in cap space in 2014, but GAIN $3M in cap space in 2013. Given that some of the players on one-year contracts will be extended, those extensions can be worked to spend this year's cap rather than next year's. So whether the hit is next year or this year is really immaterial. The fact that the Cardinals actually paid over $3M in cash to make the trade happen and improve their cap situation by $0.7M between this year and next is actually cause for praise and the OPPOSITE of "cheap old Bidwills" thinking.

Sheesh, people!

...dave

 

[Cardiac]

You make some good points and I understand the "principal" of things, but the teams still saved a half a mil.

Yes they did and so I need to stop being pi$$y about it. Bottom line the Levi saga is over and that's a good thing.

Everything about this move and everything that BA and SK have said about it makes perfect sense to me, so i don't know where all the wild speculation and conspiracy theories are coming from.

It made NO sense for Keim to move Brown in the off season. First, he might've had EVEN LESS value because he'd just missed an entire year with an injury. Second, nearly everyone thought a big part of Brown and the rest of the OL's problems resulted from terrible coaching by Grimm. People would be lynching Keim on this board for giving up on Brown without at least giving BA a chance to coach him up. It made perfect sense to wait to see whether (a) he was fully recovered from his injury, and (b) the new staff could turn Brown into a competent left tackle.

After watching his film from 2011 (during the second half of which, i recall, Brown allowed zero sacks and was one of the higher rated tackles in the league), Arians expressed his opinion (and hope) (perhaps largely as a motivating tactic) that Brown is (or at least had the potential to be) "elite".

Then training camp and preseason happened. Next thing you know Brown was "no lock to start" and had to compete for his spot. Then the regular season came and Brown gave up three sacks vs. the Rams! By this point most likely Arians and his staff realized that Brown had reverted to the player he was his entire career up to the second half of his contract year.

At that point, it made sense to move him, if they could get anything of value in return. An upgraded draft pick is better than most would've expected. (While details haven't been released, it's crazy to believe that the return pick will be in the same round as the one given. Most likely in my opinion the Cardinals gave a 7th and will receive a conditional 6th or 5th in return. Has any team EVER traded for a pick in the same round, without knowing where the two teams would be picking in that round??)

Is Arians thrilled about it? Of course not. It's a small failure on the part of him and his staff that they were unable to get more out of Brown than Grimm did. Perhaps he even asked Keim to hold off on moving Brown. But beyond that, i see no evidence of a "rift". Nobody forced Arians to say that there was "no downside" to the trade and that "things couldn't get much worse." And Arians must've vouched to Keim for his new guy, Sowell.

As for cap ramifications, according to this article by Urban:


So the Cardinals lose $2.3M in cap space in 2014, but GAIN $3M in cap space in 2013. Given that some of the players on one-year contracts will be extended, those extensions can be worked to spend this year's cap rather than next year's. So whether the hit is next year or this year is really immaterial. The fact that the Cardinals actually paid over $3M in cash to make the trade happen and improve their cap situation by $0.7M between this year and next is actually cause for praise and the OPPOSITE of "cheap old Bidwills" thinking.

Sheesh, people!

...dave

This all makes sense to me, Great Post.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Everything about this move and everything that BA and SK have said about it makes perfect sense to me, so i don't know where all the wild speculation and conspiracy theories are coming from.

It made NO sense for Keim to move Brown in the off season. First, he might've had EVEN LESS value because he'd just missed an entire year with an injury. Second, nearly everyone thought a big part of Brown and the rest of the OL's problems resulted from terrible coaching by Grimm. People would be lynching Keim on this board for giving up on Brown without at least giving BA a chance to coach him up. It made perfect sense to wait to see whether (a) he was fully recovered from his injury, and (b) the new staff could turn Brown into a competent left tackle.

After watching his film from 2011 (during the second half of which, i recall, Brown allowed zero sacks and was one of the higher rated tackles in the league), Arians expressed his opinion (and hope) (perhaps largely as a motivating tactic) that Brown is (or at least had the potential to be) "elite".

Then training camp and preseason happened. Next thing you know Brown was "no lock to start" and had to compete for his spot. Then the regular season came and Brown gave up three sacks vs. the Rams! By this point most likely Arians and his staff realized that Brown had reverted to the player he was his entire career up to the second half of his contract year.

At that point, it made sense to move him, if they could get anything of value in return. An upgraded draft pick is better than most would've expected. (While details haven't been released, it's crazy to believe that the return pick will be in the same round as the one given. Most likely in my opinion the Cardinals gave a 7th and will receive a conditional 6th or 5th in return. Has any team EVER traded for a pick in the same round, without knowing where the two teams would be picking in that round??)

Is Arians thrilled about it? Of course not. It's a small failure on the part of him and his staff that they were unable to get more out of Brown than Grimm did. Perhaps he even asked Keim to hold off on moving Brown. But beyond that, i see no evidence of a "rift". Nobody forced Arians to say that there was "no downside" to the trade and that "things couldn't get much worse." And Arians must've vouched to Keim for his new guy, Sowell.

As for cap ramifications, according to this article by Urban:


So the Cardinals lose $2.3M in cap space in 2014, but GAIN $3M in cap space in 2013. Given that some of the players on one-year contracts will be extended, those extensions can be worked to spend this year's cap rather than next year's. So whether the hit is next year or this year is really immaterial. The fact that the Cardinals actually paid over $3M in cash to make the trade happen and improve their cap situation by $0.7M between this year and next is actually cause for praise and the OPPOSITE of "cheap old Bidwills" thinking.

Sheesh, people!

...dave

Fantastic post! I completely agree with your view of this situation. Nicely done...


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[kerouac9]

You make some good points and I understand the "principal" of things, but the teams still saved a half a mil.

I guess, but they would've saved the same amount simply by releasing him and letting some team sign him for the veteran minimum. They just (further) damaged their 2014 cap along the way.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I guess, but they would've saved the same amount simply by releasing him and letting some team sign him for the veteran minimum. They just (further) damaged their 2014 cap along the way.

They also picked up a conditional 2014 pick...


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[Mulli]

Saying this thread is about wild speculation and conspiracy theory is inaccurate.

 

[Mulli]

They also picked up a conditional 2014 pick...


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Sort of. They upgraded a pick. A little different, not much I guess.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

No false starts will be called on #75 today. That will be refreshing

 

[82CardsGrad]

Saying this thread is about wild speculation and conspiracy theory is inaccurate.

I'm grading your opinions and speculations at a 25 / 100...


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[Mulli]

I'm grading your opinions and speculations at a 25 / 100...


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That is the thing, they did send a pick to Pittsburgh. No big deal, I guess, that is fine. But it happened. That is what this thread was about when I started it.

Here is an opinion:

Koolaiders have posted more opinions and speculation on this than I have. I am ready to see what Sowell does.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I am ready to see what Sowell does.

Me too. How Sowell does will show what we do or do not have in him.

Here's hoping he has a good game for Palmer's sake and health.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I just knew this kind of response was coming. Getting rid of Levi is only part of the problem. The people who have been "screaming" for him to be gone have been screaming to upgrade the position. And there have been MULTIPLE chances to do so...even in just the last eight months and nothing was done to do so. So, now you throw in that we got rid of him, we had to pay to get rid of him and we apparently had to hurt our cap next year to get rid of him...and still haven't done anything to upgrade the LT, you're damn right we're still pissed.

this is amateur hour.

Have to agree with Cheese here.

It's not that we got rid of Levi. It's how it went down, it's passing on available replacements and if we got fleeced in the process. Especially to the Steelers.

 

[Mitch]

This is mostly speculation on my part---but BA's "Levi is elite" comment is more about when it was said than anything else.

The comment was made at the Combine---and by then BA&SK already had the framework of their off-season plan in place.

They decided that based on Levi's last 8 games in 2011, where he was elite in the running game and solid for the first time in pass pro---that they were going to hope that Levi would pick up right where he left off.

I think that this was more Steve Keim's thought than BA's, as BA likely didn't know all that much about Levi.

The word "elite" was wishful thinking obviously. But it also speaks to the power of suggestion. The power of suggestion does work with some players.

See---BA&SK knew that they were going to have to pick up bargain free agents and they had numerous positions to address. Crossing off LT in favor of addressing the needs at QB, LG, LB & S was what they considered the right thing to do.

As fans we were dubious, for sure....but like BA&SK, we were hopeful too.

Before the draft, at the Combine where BA made his remarks, I think he also wanted to give the fans a hint that tackle was not going to be the Cardinals' #1 priority in the draft---despite what all the pundits were saying...those who had the names Joeckel, Fisher, Johnson and Fluker penned in for the Cardinals in their mocks from January to April.

You can only do so much in one off-season.

Signing the elite QBs, LTs and RDEs---costs prime dollars and a large slice of the cap space. This is why these are the top three positions teams look to fill in the first round of virtually every draft.

I think BA&SK deserve some slack on this. They are more disappointed than anyone that Levi came back inept instead.

 

[WisconsinCard]

I guess, but they would've saved the same amount simply by releasing him and letting some team sign him for the veteran minimum. They just (further) damaged their 2014 cap along the way.

And get no draft pick, which I believe will be an upgraded one because no one would trade a player and get a lower pick.

 

[WisconsinCard]

This is mostly speculation on my part---but BA's "Levi is elite" comment is more about when it was said than anything else.

The comment was made at the Combine---and by then BA&SK already had the framework of their off-season plan in place.

They decided that based on Levi's last 8 games in 2011, where he was elite in the running game and solid for the first time in pass pro---that they were going to hope that Levi would pick up right where he left off.

I think that this was more Steve Keim's thought than BA's, as BA likely didn't know all that much about Levi.

The word "elite" was wishful thinking obviously. But it also speaks to the power of suggestion. The power of suggestion does work with some players.

See---BA&SK knew that they were going to have to pick up bargain free agents and they had numerous positions to address. Crossing off LT in favor of addressing the needs at QB, LG, LB & S was what they considered the right thing to do.

As fans we were dubious, for sure....but like BA&SK, we were hopeful too.

Before the draft, at the Combine where BA made his remarks, I think he also wanted to give the fans a hint that tackle was not going to be the Cardinals' #1 priority in the draft---despite what all the pundits were saying...those who had the names Joeckel, Fisher, Johnson and Fluker penned in for the Cardinals in their mocks from January to April.

You can only do so much in one off-season.

Signing the elite QBs, LTs and RDEs---costs prime dollars and a large slice of the cap space. This is why these are the top three positions teams look to fill in the first round of virtually every draft.

I think BA&SK deserve some slack on this. They are more disappointed than anyone that Levi came back inept instead.

I also gave some thought that maybe BA was trying to get other teams to believe that they don't need to trade ahead of us because we are not drafting a tackle. Of course one didn't fall that far anyway. But it very well could have been draft strategy when making that comment.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They also picked up a conditional 2014 pick...


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let me ask you this question...if you heard the Cardinals gave up 2.5 million dollars in cap room next year for a conditional 7th round or 6th round pick, would you happy about that move?

 

[Darkside]

let me ask you this question...if you heard the Cardinals gave up 2.5 million dollars in cap room next year for a conditional 7th round or 6th round pick, would you happy about that move?

Well said. Even without throwing in a LT--no matter how bad he was--it's a net loss for us IMO. I have to believe they felt his lack of work ethic and lack of improvement was infectious to those around him. I also think BA is big about sending messages to the team--they did the same thing IMO bringing in Dan Carpenter; no intention of signing him but did it to send a message.

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[WisconsinCard]

let me ask you this question...if you heard the Cardinals gave up 2.5 million dollars in cap room next year for a conditional 7th round or 6th round pick, would you happy about that move?

But gained 3 mil this year. Depending on what they do with that money, then maybe that changes your mind.

I looks as though Levi was on his way out, so that dead money was going to be there either way, or am I wrong on that?

 

[Cheesebeef]

But gained 3 mil this year. Depending on what they do with that money, then maybe that changes your mind.

this would curb my problem with the trade. still wouldn't fix my bigger problem that we put ourselves in this position to have another UDFA as our LT for the majority of the season for two years in a row, especially when there were actually a good number of options to finally improve a long-terrible position in the off-season and even up until this week.

 

[WisconsinCard]

this would curb my problem with the trade. still wouldn't fix my bigger problem that we put ourselves in this position to have another UDFA as our LT for the majority of the season for two years in a row, especially when there were actually a good number of options to finally improve a long-terrible position in the off-season and even up until this week.

Agreed, but as you know that's cardinal football...

 

[Duckjake]

We should have sent them Housler instead of the draft pick.

 

[SECTION 11]

Not moronic at all. Pure genius.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

When you have a cancer in a body you have to cut it. Levi was a cancer.

Housler is just incompetent. Had no business being drafted in the first place. Could never block or run routes; no awareness and bad hands.