Gambo and Ash - Barbosa closer than Diaw to a contract extension.

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Look, Oden is projected to be a great player, but he's never even played against college level players yet! 4 possible young players and a foundation for the future for one potentially great player is not the smartest transaction.

you have to take a chance on greatness. if you told me that we could give up those four pieces (diaw, who though a terrific player will never be a centerpiece of a team, barbs who is a sg in a pg's body, and two gambles, for that's what draft picks are - and yes, i understand that oden is a gamble too, but gambles like him don't come around often) for a player that could emerge as tim duncan or david robinson and we DON'T have to give up nash, amare, or marion . . . i don't even think about that for a second before i say yes.

 

[Mainstreet]

you have to take a chance on greatness. if you told me that we could give up those four pieces (diaw, who though a terrific player will never be a centerpiece of a team, barbs who is a sg in a pg's body, and two gambles, for that's what draft picks are - and yes, i understand that oden is a gamble too, but gambles like him don't come around often) for a player that could emerge as tim duncan or david robinson and we DON'T have to give up nash, amare, or marion . . . i don't even think about that for a second before i say yes.

I do not disagree altogether, except I would not include Diaw. I glanced at his stats the other day from the last game of the Mavs series (only going from memory here) but I think Diaw had like 30 points and like 9-10 rebounds in that game and Barbosa I think was like the second leading scorer after Diaw. I kept thinking next to Nash, these players really came to play and are very much a part of the Suns future. Actually, if Amare projects to be healthy all the Suns need are some young players for the future and this next draft the Suns have three picks if they desire to use them. If Diaw and Barbosa are extended... this team is set.

IMO, the key is Amare. I was looking at DraftNet, the other day. The Suns should be able to get a high caliber big man probably through the 12th pick. I figure the Suns will use at least one pick this coming season or after the season to move a player in a trade.

I guess I'm saying, I'm more prone to gamble if I have a losing hand, not a winning hand.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I do not disagree altogether, except I would not include Diaw. I glanced at his stats the other day from the last game of the Mavs series (only going from memory here) but I think Diaw had like 30 points and like 9-10 rebounds in that game and Barbosa I think was like the second leading scorer after Diaw. I kept thinking next to Nash, these players really came to play and are very much a part of the Suns future. Actually, if Amare projects to be healthy all the Suns need are some young players for the future and this next draft the Suns have three picks if they desire to use them. If Diaw and Barbosa are extended... this team is set.

IMO, the key is Amare. I was looking at DraftNet, the other day. The Suns should be able to get a high caliber big man probably through the 12th pick. I figure the Suns will use at least one pick this coming season or after the season to move a player in a trade.

I guess I'm saying, I'm more prone to gamble if I have a losing hand, not a winning hand.

i agree somewhat with your last statement. but oden is a great friggin gamble. the dude is not only a ridiculous specimen, but he's a legit center, and he's got the right attitude and work ethic. is he flashy in his desire to be the best like amare? no. but i think he has the same drive. and if you could pair the two of them up for years and amare recovers . . . other teams would look at the suns and say "omg, how do we go up against these guys?" regardless this is all moot. no one is trading away the pick for oden.

 

[George O'Brien]

I tend to agree with Eric when he said he got tired of reading so many posts by people who are obsessed with future luxury tax issues rather than getting a championship.

IMHO there is no real chance that trading KT or Marion this summer will improve the team's chances of winning the title. We get a lot of "well KT might not recover" (which suggests his market value is low rather than he should be traded) or "Max guys need to be able to make their own shots" stuff that is totally beside the point. Is there are trade available that will IMPROVE the Suns chances of winning the championship?

In economics, the concept of "sunk costs" is really important. It doesn't matter what you paid for a product or committement. All that matters is whether you are better off with what you have or in making an exchange. The fact that people want to trade for Marion doesn't meant they will replace what Marion does for the team. I've never heard a GM announce, "the key to this season's success was how we loaded up on expiring contracts so we could save money someday."

The irony with KT is that some of the people who are pushing to have him traded for cap reasons are the same ones who want to get Gooden who would be far more expensive. If luxury tax is the issue with KT it is a bigger issue with Gooden.

 

[Silverbullet]

Hell with the TAX I still would like to move KT for DG ( at no more than 5/40).

 

[F-Dog]

Diaw, Barbosa, the Atlanta #1 AND another #1 for Oden?

Oden's good, but come on now.

I must have missed this one the first time.

Oden isn't "good', he's a sure-thing future superstar, a player who's destined for transcendence in a way that, say, Dwight Howard never was.

Compared to the player that Oden is universally expected to become, the Suns' side of that deal is a pile of stinking garbage. It's pointless to even discuss it, because there is no GM in the league who would seriously consider that offer for more than a second or two.

Not even Isiah Thomas.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

you have to take a chance on greatness. if you told me that we could give up those four pieces (diaw, who though a terrific player will never be a centerpiece of a team, barbs who is a sg in a pg's body, and two gambles, for that's what draft picks are - and yes, i understand that oden is a gamble too, but gambles like him don't come around often) for a player that could emerge as tim duncan or david robinson and we DON'T have to give up nash, amare, or marion . . . i don't even think about that for a second before i say yes.

OKay i agree on the fact that i would make that trade being that centers like Oden come around once every ten years.

But i think I disagree on your ceiling with Diaw. I mean besides a little more jumping ability and alot of marketing, whats the difference between Lebron and Boris. They have essentially the same skill set. LeBron has obviously matured at a much quicker pace, but i don't think its impossible that Diaw evolves into a franchise type player. What flaw he currently possess do you think is omething we won't eventually improve upon (namely his outside shooting which he has already become reliable from midrangwe with) It's just matter of how much better he wants to get. But i saw enough in the Dallas series to realize this kid is better than ANY of us thought before last season or even half way through the season.....

 

[George O'Brien]

It is a bit premature to put Boris in LeBron's category. LeBron is absolutely huge - he weighed 240 when drafted and is a lot bigger now. The result is a guy who has Amare size and eyes in the back of his head.

However, I think Boris is going to be very very good. His growth this past season was just amazing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

OKay i agree on the fact that i would make that trade being that centers like Oden come around once every ten years.

But i think I disagree on your ceiling with Diaw. I mean besides a little more jumping ability and alot of marketing, whats the difference between Lebron and Boris. They have essentially the same skill set. LeBron has obviously matured at a much quicker pace, but i don't think its impossible that Diaw evolves into a franchise type player. What flaw he currently possess do you think is omething we won't eventually improve upon (namely his outside shooting which he has already become reliable from midrangwe with) It's just matter of how much better he wants to get. But i saw enough in the Dallas series to realize this kid is better than ANY of us thought before last season or even half way through the season.....

come on man - Boris is a very good player with very good tools, but what's the difference between Bron and Diaw - how about ridiculous SPEED, POWER AND HOPS. To say that Lebron has "a little more" jumping ability is the understatement of the year.

That's not to say I don't think Boris can be a very good-great player, but there is ZERO comparison between what type of players Bron and Boris can be. Boris can be a great (pre-knee surgery) Danny Manning, whereas Bron is most likely going to end up one of THE greatest players of all time.

 

[Joe Mama]

OKay i agree on the fact that i would make that trade being that centers like Oden come around once every ten years.

But i think I disagree on your ceiling with Diaw. I mean besides a little more jumping ability and alot of marketing, whats the difference between Lebron and Boris. They have essentially the same skill set. LeBron has obviously matured at a much quicker pace, but i don't think its impossible that Diaw evolves into a franchise type player. What flaw he currently possess do you think is omething we won't eventually improve upon (namely his outside shooting which he has already become reliable from midrangwe with) It's just matter of how much better he wants to get. But i saw enough in the Dallas series to realize this kid is better than ANY of us thought before last season or even half way through the season.....

I agree that Boris Diaw's ceiling is quite high, but Lebron James? I think not. Lebron James is almost as big as Magic Johnson was when he first entered the NBA except he's a hell of a lot more athletic. Boris Diaw is an excellent distributor very Lebron James is in another category though, and don't bring out statistics to prove me wrong. I don't care what the numbers say. James has better passing skills than almost all of the point guards in the NBA.

Of course the big differences between Boris Diaw and LeBron James are their aggressiveness and shooting. Diaw is not very good on the perimeter unless he is wide open. James can rise up and shoot pretty well against anybody. I wish boris was as aggressive as Lebron James. I wish he was as good at drawing contact him getting to the free-throw line.

I love Boris Diaw. He's my favorite player in the NBA. He's no Lebron James though. I'm 99% sure he'll never be as good as James is right now much less in a few years when James has reached his full potential.

Joe Mama

 

[Joe Mama]

I must have missed this one the first time.

Oden isn't "good', he's a sure-thing future superstar, a player who's destined for transcendence in a way that, say, Dwight Howard never was.

Compared to the player that Oden is universally expected to become, the Suns' side of that deal is a pile of stinking garbage. It's pointless to even discuss it, because there is no GM in the league who would seriously consider that offer for more than a second or two.

Not even Isiah Thomas.

you are forgetting that the Phoenix Suns are on the verge of winning a championship. That's the ultimate goal for these teams, and especially for a team like Phoenix that has never won it all.

I've watched Oden. I think he's going to be at least a very good player, but I'm not ready to put him in the class of Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, or even Rasheed Wallace just yet. Let's see him dominate some college teams first.

Joe Mama

 

[F-Dog]

I've watched Oden. I think he's going to be at least a very good player, but I'm not ready to put him in the class of Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, or even Rasheed Wallace just yet. Let's see him dominate some college teams first.

If I'd watched Oden and came away less than impressed, I would assume my own lack of vision was at fault, rather than any weakness of Oden's.

In my memory, there are two players who've come out of HS with this kind of buildup: Shaq and LeBron James. Oden is the no-brainer #1 next year (in a strong field), he would have been the no-brainer #1 this year if he was eligible, and also the no-brainer #1 last year, and frankly, he would have been in the running for #1 the year before that--which would have been after his sophomore year in HS.

Scouting for the NBA isn't an exact science, but they don't mess up to that degree. Unless Oden's leg falls off, he'll be better than Rasheed Wallace.

you are forgetting that the Phoenix Suns are on the verge of winning a championship. That's the ultimate goal for these teams, and especially for a team like Phoenix that has never won it all.

This is the part that's pointless to discuss.

Still, I wouldn't just assume that the Suns would be closer to a championship in 2007/8 with Diaw et. al. than they would be with Oden, especially after the players' contracts are figured in.

 

[Joe Mama]

If I'd watched Oden and came away less than impressed, I would assume my own lack of vision was at fault, rather than any weakness of Oden's.

In my memory, there are two players who've come out of HS with this kind of buildup: Shaq and LeBron James. Oden is the no-brainer #1 next year (in a strong field), he would have been the no-brainer #1 this year if he was eligible, and also the no-brainer #1 last year, and frankly, he would have been in the running for #1 the year before that--which would have been after his sophomore year in HS.

Scouting for the NBA isn't an exact science, but they don't mess up to that degree. Unless Oden's leg falls off, he'll be better than Rasheed Wallace.


This is the part that's pointless to discuss.

Still, I wouldn't just assume that the Suns would be closer to a championship in 2007/8 with Diaw et. al. than they would be with Oden, especially after the players' contracts are figured in.

I did not say that I wasn't impressed. I know he would have been taken #1 if he had been allowed to come out over the last few years, but that also has a lot to do with the strength of the drafts and drafting on potential. When Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, and LeBron James were drafted there was no doubt that each of them would be a superstar player. Oden looks like a pretty sure bet for an All-Star, but I don't get that same absolute feeling that he's going to be an NBA superstar even though he has the advantage of playing with such a dearth of quality, young, big men.

Now as for the trade, after going back and looking at it I would definitely do it. When I wrote my post I thought we were having the Phoenix Suns giving up more for some reason. I would definitely give up Boris Diaw, Barbosa, and a couple #1 draft picks (including Atlanta's to get Greg Oden, and I'm a huge Diaw fan.

Joe Mama

 

[nowagimp]

I agree that Boris Diaw's ceiling is quite high, but Lebron James? I think not. Lebron James is almost as big as Magic Johnson was when he first entered the NBA except he's a hell of a lot more athletic. Boris Diaw is an excellent distributor very Lebron James is in another category though, and don't bring out statistics to prove me wrong. I don't care what the numbers say. James has better passing skills than almost all of the point guards in the NBA.

Of course the big differences between Boris Diaw and LeBron James are their aggressiveness and shooting. Diaw is not very good on the perimeter unless he is wide open. James can rise up and shoot pretty well against anybody. I wish boris was as aggressive as Lebron James. I wish he was as good at drawing contact him getting to the free-throw line.

I love Boris Diaw. He's my favorite player in the NBA. He's no Lebron James though. I'm 99% sure he'll never be as good as James is right now much less in a few years when James has reached his full potential.

Joe Mama

I also do not think Diaw will ever be as good as James, but, I think that James will be as good as his outside shot makes him. Everyone plays off Lebron because shooting is the weakest part of his game(33% career from 3, I expect mostly undefended by choice). Lebron is faster and jumps better than boris, pretty much does everything at least as well. But like Jordan was when he was a pup in the NBA, his least effective weapon is his outside shot. I watched him in every available playoff game and almost every defense plays well off of him, he has the 3 anytime he wants it(at 33% it might be the best strategy as when he shoots outside shots, he doesnt create for other players either).

As a suns fan, I would love to get oden, but that probably means that Nash should be moved and any chance of a championship is delayed for the future in 3-4 years. The team will be ripped apart and chemistry of building around a guy like oden will probably not be re established until Nash is what 34-35?. I think the suns could win this year with Diaw and Barbs. The last time the suns were in the finals was '93, I wouldnt be so quick to trade that chance for this year away. With Lebron, the cavs might not even make it to the finals for 2 more years.

 

[Muggum]

When the Suns were down 3-1 to the Lakers in the first round, I rationalized losing the series with the comforting thought that it would be easier to extend Diaw and Barbosa and resign Thomas if we/they had belly-flopped on national TV.

By beating the Lakers and Clippers and pushing the Mavs to 6, we won the battle, but lost the war. The value of all three players skyrocketed. We lost Thomas. Now we're struggling to extend Diaw and Barbosa. We'll probably lose one of the two.

A Pyrrhic victory?

 

[Esther]

By beating the Lakers and Clippers and pushing the Mavs to 6, we won the battle, but lost the war. The value of all three players skyrocketed.

These battles are the true rites-of-passage for Diaw and Barbosa. Without those experience they would not have become the players they are now. If we lost to the Lakers, we would have to wait another year for Diaw and Barbosa to get their real playoff experience, and you wouldn't want that.

 

[Bada0Bing]

I watched him in every available playoff game and almost every defense plays well off of him, he has the 3 anytime he wants it(at 33% it might be the best strategy as when he shoots outside shots, he doesnt create for other players either).

Just to defend James for a second, on his 3pt%, Jordan was still shooting 18% in his 3rd year. He didn't become a 3pt shooter until his 6th year.

 

[nowagimp]

Just to defend James for a second, on his 3pt%, Jordan was still shooting 18% in his 3rd year. He didn't become a 3pt shooter until his 6th year.

I was not attacking James, he's immensely talented, but the 3pt line was something like 2' farther away at the time of Jordans entry into the NBA. Point taken though, James is a better shooter than Jordan was at the same times in their careers. Jordan was definitlely quicker off the dribble, though. I was just watching the way playoff defenses work on James, and especially at the end of games they give him the 3 or long 2 EVERY time. It takes away the dish aspect of his game and makes him shoot a 18+ footer. He will be an uncontrollable monster if he can shoot say, 38% from downtown.

 

[SunsTzu]

The 3pt line is the same it was when Jordan entered the league. The NBA had it shortened for a couple years in the 90s(when Barkley started chucking them) but they moved it back.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not sure exactly how good Oden is going to be, but there have been only a tiny number of big men coming out with this kind of hype. You don't pass on a Duncan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Kareem, Moses Malone, etc. type player if you want to continue as GM.

BTW, everyone remembers that the Blazers passed on Jordan, but they weren't the only to do so. The other team to pass on Jordan was the Rockets. They took Olajuwon instead.

 

[devilalum]

I'm not sure exactly how good Oden is going to be, but there have been only a tiny number of big men coming out with this kind of hype. You don't pass on a Duncan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Kareem, Moses Malone, etc. type player if you want to continue as GM.

BTW, everyone remembers that the Blazers passed on Jordan, but they weren't the only to do so. The other team to pass on Jordan was the Rockets. They took Olajuwon instead.

With the new rules I don't think you'll see big men dominate like most of these guys did. Duncan has been pretty dominate under the new rules but Shaq's game was immediately stunted. Shaq still hates JC because he was the driving force behind the rules changes.

 

[George O'Brien]

With the new rules I don't think you'll see big men dominate like most of these guys did. Duncan has been pretty dominate under the new rules but Shaq's game was immediately stunted. Shaq still hates JC because he was the driving force behind the rules changes.

Some of Shaq's problems are the rules, but some of it is his conditioning. It's not JC's fault that Shaq can't run.

If anything, I'd like to see the rules tightened on initiating contact by guys like Shaq. Physically backing a guy down in the lane the way he does is nothing less than a slow charge and should be called as such.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

With the new rules I don't think you'll see big men dominate like most of these guys did. Duncan has been pretty dominate under the new rules but Shaq's game was immediately stunted. Shaq still hates JC because he was the driving force behind the rules changes.

also, despite his enormity, oden is a very agile big man. he's more athletic than duncan but not quite as athletic as david robinson. he's somewhere in between. he'll dominate under the current rules. particularly in light of the fact that there just isn't any other dominant force to oppose him presently.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Some of Shaq's problems are the rules, but some of it is his conditioning. It's not JC's fault that Shaq can't run.

If anything, I'd like to see the rules tightened on initiating contact by guys like Shaq. Physically backing a guy down in the lane the way he does is nothing less than a slow charge and should be called as such.

......Which is why I have no problem with people flopping when hit by Shaq when he backs down.

 

[mribnik]

OT: Prime of their careers, who would you want on your team? Duncan, or Hakeem?

Edit: I'd take Hakeem.