Hill to Become 3 Point Threat?!?!

[scoutmasterdave]

Good post, Joe. It's easy to think that the Suns should win the title, but the fact is that there are several teams that are very capable of winning it. It comes down to being consistently competitive, making sound personnel moves, and getting a few lucky breaks. The Suns have the first one down, the second one is arguable, and the third hasn't happened yet.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm sorry, but we just haven't seen the unreasonable exit. My one complaint with Mike D'Antoni in this past playoffs was not playing Kurt Thomas more in game 1. That could have made a big difference of course, but I don't think he'll make that mistake again.

My point is that the fans of every good team think they are exiting prematurely. For two seasons before this past one injuries were a major factor in the team getting knocked off. You can go and say that every team faces injury problems, but that's not true. More often than not the team that wins the championship is a team that's fortunate enough to have good health all the way through.

Some of you guys act like the Phoenix Suns had the best record and were knocked out of the playoffs in the first round by the #8. I'd be right there with you if that was the case.

I know a lot of you guys on this message board would do a better job coaching the Phoenix Suns than Mike D'Antoni, but that doesn't change the fact that despite some issues we might have with some of his decisions he has done very, very well.

Joe

that's all well and good, but as far as "not making that mistake again" re: KT, did you not read the thoughts DA had on the fishing trip with Kerr where he lamented the Spurs forcing us out of our comfort zone and how we bent to their will. Who do you think he's talking about there Joe? Someone besides KT? Even if he's not talking about that, how he didn't realize KT worth BEFORE the series is STILL beyond me. Everyone in here was talking about - it was plain as day - hell, even George knew it was needed and that's saying something.

As far as DA doing very, very well - no one's, at least I'm not, saying that he hasn't, but there's a difference between doing very, very well and being a title caliber coach. Rick Carlisle did very, very well with the Pistons, but it wasn't until they got Larry Brown that they actually became relevant title contenders. Same with Doug Collins with the Bulls before Phil got there and same with even DelHarris before Phil got there. I just wonder if DA is more Rick Carlisle/Stan Van Gundy/Doug Collins/Del Harris than Larry Brown/Phil Jackson/Greg Popovich.

I think this year is the tale of the tape - there should be no excuses for DA now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Some of you guys act like the Phoenix Suns had the best record and were knocked out of the playoffs in the first round by the #8. I'd be right there with you if that was the case.

jesus, more hyperbole - who is acting like this? If this is really the way it's gonna be for the rest of the summer, you and Chandler Mike should put up a new sticky that lists a new rule for the board:

ANY SOMEWHAT NEGATIVE/CONTENTIOUS OPINION IS COMPLETELY UNWARRANTED AND SHOULD BE MET WITH SCORN, RIDICULE AND UNABASHED HYPERBOLE.

 

[azirish]

Any exit that doesnt carry a trophy home is premature and unreasonable.

Thats pretty basic imo

IMHO, there is rarely more than two or three teams with the talent to win the championship. For everyone else, their early exit is far from premature nor unreasonable.

A year ago, the Mavs beat the Spurs in the second round because the Spurs had some injury issues. This year the Spurs were healthy and the Suns were not. I was disappointed the Suns lost, but it was not unreasonable. At least they played the Spurs better than anybody else in the playoffs.

 

[Matt L]

I like your coaching comparisons cheese but I am pretty sure that Larry Brown was bounced around a few teams before he actually won it. I am not saying that he is a bad coach because he did some great things with the 76ers and the Pacers and he did eventually lead the Pistons to a title but he was with those teams for longer than a year or two and didn't win the title. I think that winning a championship has to be a combination of alot of factors and coaching is just one of them.

The problem that you seem to have with DA (and I completely agree with you) is that it seems that he would sacrifice wins for style. He would like to win, but he wants to win by playing the uptempo game and he has a problem changing that style even if it gives the team a better chance to win.

In the 2006 playoffs it was ok to challenge each team with that breakneck pace and tempo really gave the team the best chance to win. This last year, he basically had to be forced into playing KT. When Amare and Boris were suspended he only played six players. You can't tell me that Jalen Rose couldn't have helped to even allow for one of those guys to get some rest.

For my final point: there is absolutely no reason for any other player on this team to be taking more shots than Amare, Amare's game is for the interior and he is obviously going to have the higher percentage shots but it seems like the team would rather use him as the second option.

I think that the people that you guys are labeling as "darksiders" are just venting their frustration with some of the coaching decisions. And last time I checked, that was one of the major draws of team message boards.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I like your coaching comparisons cheese but I am pretty sure that Larry Brown was bounced around a few teams before he actually won it. I am not saying that he is a bad coach because he did some great things with the 76ers and the Pacers and he did eventually lead the Pistons to a title but he was with those teams for longer than a year or two and didn't win the title. I think that winning a championship has to be a combination of alot of factors and coaching is just one of them.

I agree with almost everything you've said, however, in regards to Brown, I think the difference is that Brown almost ALWAYS got the maximum out of what little he was given to work with (with the exception being the Knicks). The Pacers were NOTHING before he got there and within ONE year they were in the conference finals, losing Game 7s back to back - which is still more than can be said about DA. And as far as the Sixers, that team was horrendous, even with AI before Larry got there and within three years, he got that rag-tag group of trash to the second best record in the league and a Finals appearance. He's ALWAYS elevated teams above their talent and that is what puts him up there versus DA in my opinion because he's never had near the talent level to work with.

 

[azirish]

I had forgotten about Larry being with the Pacers:

1993 - 47 wins
1994 - 52 wins
1995 - 52 wins (out in first round)
1996 - 39 wins

I'm surprised that Larry Brown would be used as a comparison to D'Antoni. Larry won one championship with a team that was built by Carlisle, but built his reputation by getting close. IMHO his stubborness cost the USA the gold medal in 2004.

 

[PetryJr]

Rick Carlisle did very, very well with the Pistons, but it wasn't until they got Larry Brown that they actually became relevant title contenders.

Actually, it wasn't until they got Rasheed Wallace that they became relevant title contenders. Brown wouldn't have won anything without Wallace, and we don't know whether Carlisle would be able to win it all with Rasheed or not.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Actually, it wasn't until they got Rasheed Wallace that they became relevant title contenders. Brown wouldn't have won anything without Wallace, and we don't know whether Carlisle would be able to win it all with Rasheed or not.

actually, it wasn't until they had BOTH that they became contenders. That team was still quite good without Wallace, winning 31 of it's first 46 games.

 

[BC867]

This isn't what I really want to hear from D'Antoni. We have enough players who will shoot the 3. There is NO USE for Grant if he's going to be launching 3's. That's not his game, and has never been his game ...

If Hill starts turning into a 3 point shooter, I'll lose it completely, and I will want D'Antoni's head. Why is he never open to change, not even in the least?

D'Antoni's quote is no surprise. We all know that he thinks he can produce a winner with a lineup of a Power Forward, a Small Forward and three Guards.

And when Amare goes to the bench in foul trouble, then two Small Forwards and three Guards.

The question is, what defines a winner? For decades, Jerry Colangelo followed the path of . . . put on a good show at home, don't embarass yourself on the road and make an appearance in the playoffs.

Apparently, the current regime has the same philosophy, no matter how much it frustrates real Suns fans.

Revenue rules. Being the best when you are so close, not so important.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I had forgotten about Larry being with the Pacers:

1993 - 47 wins
1994 - 52 wins
1995 - 52 wins (out in first round)
1996 - 39 wins

I'm surprised that Larry Brown would be used as a comparison to D'Antoni. Larry won one championship with a team that was built by Carlisle, but built his reputation by getting close.

I'd surprised to, but considering Ididn't compare the two, I'm not sure what you're taling about. Brown's won everywhere he's gone, taking two different teams to NBA Finals, having coached in 3 of them, winning one and restarting MULTIPLE franchises who were completely pathetic and turning them into instant contenders - San Antonio, the Clippers (yeah, getting that team into the playoffs two times is a miracle in of itself), the Pacers, the Sixers and the Pistons. And all of this without multiple players with All-World talent like Amare, Nash, Marion, Barbs, etc. etc.

Meanwhile, it remains to be seen what DA is without Nash. We've seen him completely fail in Denver and we've seen his team play atrociously without Nash. At this point, what DA is and isn't really isn't all that clear to me and probably won't be until Nash retires or DA coaches another team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Apparently, the current regime has the same philosophy, no matter how much it frustrates real Suns fans.

this comment is just as big a load a crap as was the hyperbole that I earlier mentioned being spewed on here. To surmise that people who don't share you're opinion aren't "real Suns fans" is just ridiculous. there's no need for the hyperbole or insulting comments guys. Just talk basketball. good lord.

 

[PetryJr]

actually, it wasn't until they had BOTH that they became contenders. That team was still quite good without Wallace, winning 31 of it's first 46 games.

They were quite good with Carlisle too, winning 50 games twice, and winning 34 of their first 49 games in 2002-03. My point still stands. Carlisle never had a chance to coach that Detroit team, so it can't really be said that he wouldn't be able to do the same.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They were quite good with Carlisle too, winning 50 games twice, and winning 34 of their first 49 games in 2002-03. My point still stands. Carlisle never had a chance to coach that Detroit team, so it can't really be said that he wouldn't be able to do the same.

I guess that's true, but he was the coach of an even better team in Indy that same year (61 win I believe) and Brown coached the pants off him and Carlisle's never proven anything since, has he? There's no comparison between Brown's body of work and Carlisle's, is there?

 

[BC867]

this comment is just as big a load a crap as was the hyperbole that I earlier mentioned being spewed on here. To surmise that people who don't share you're opinion aren't "real Suns fans" is just ridiculous. there's no need for the hyperbole or insulting comments guys. Just talk basketball. good lord.

C'mon now, cheesebeef, read my post again. Nowhere did I say that "people who don't share you're -- that's 'your' -- opinion aren't 'real Suns fans'.

I said, "Apparently, the current regime has the same philosophy (as Colangelo), no matter how much it frustrates real Suns fans."

I've been a Suns fan since 1970 -- just a few years after their inception. And have seen what Suns management does in terms of not ever understanding how to win a Championship. It is frustrating.

Expecting Hill to play far enough out to shoot 3-point shots (something he's never done in his career) is bad management, and it is frustrating to this fan.

 

[PetryJr]

I guess that's true, but he was the coach of an even better team in Indy that same year and Brown coached the pants off him and Carlisle's never proven anything since, has he? There's no comparison between Brown's body of work and Carlisle's, is there?

No, I'm not comparing the two coaches. I'm just saying that I don't think it's accurate to say the Pistons needed Brown to put them over the top, because we just don't know how Carlisle would have done if he coached that team.

On a separate note, I agree that Carlisle didn't really do a very good job in Indiana. But after what's happened over the last few years, I wonder how complicated it was to coach a championship contender with a guy like Ron Artest as a key player.

 

[dodie53]

Just an FYI - Shawn Marion attempted more 3 point shots last year than Hill has in his entire career.

based on this info,
hill doesn't want to be a 3point shooter or he lacks the confident to shoot it from afar.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, I'm not comparing the two coaches. I'm just saying that I don't think it's accurate to say the Pistons needed Brown to put them over the top, because we just don't know how Carlisle would have done if he coached that team.

On a separate note, I agree that Carlisle didn't really do a very good job in Indiana. But after what's happened over the last few years, I wonder how complicated it was to coach a championship contender with a guy like Ron Artest as a key player.

gotcha.

 

[Cheesebeef]

C'mon now, cheesebeef, read my post again. Nowhere did I say that "people who don't share you're -- that's 'your' -- opinion aren't 'real Suns fans'.

I said, "Apparently, the current regime has the same philosophy (as Colangelo), no matter how much it frustrates real Suns fans."

I've been a Suns fan since 1970 -- just a few years after their inception. And have seen what Suns management does in terms of not ever understanding how to win a Championship. It is frustrating.

Expecting Hill to play far enough out to shoot 3-point shots (something he's never done in his career) is bad management, and it is frustrating to this fan.

man, just telling you how I thought the quote came off... and I'm one of the people that agrees with you as far as DA's philosophy. It's just dangerous to throw out the "real suns fans" comment because of what the implication is to everyone else. that's all I'm saying.

 

[Stargazer]

I don't know even where to begin so I'll just go to your last point. I'd rather win at ANY style than be stubborn in thinking only our style is entertaining, even if it means we won't win it. but, hey to each his own.

I'm not sure that's quite what I meant to say. I'm not interested in a team that's "entertaining" but doesn't actually win games. But winning isn't the only thing -- I'd like to win with a team that's trying something different, at least as long as I feel like there's a legitimate chance that it can work, and I do. (And no, I'm not D'Antoni posting under a fake name.)

I realize not everybody agrees with that sentiment. In fact, there are probably some who think that's exactly what's wrong with the team.

 

[SunsTzu]

D'Antoni talked about about hill's midrange and passing game mostly it seemed. He didn't say anything about 3pt shooting until a reporter asked. I'm sure he'd like Hill to be a 3pt threat but his comments about forcing Hill to shoot 3s seemed tounge in cheek.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm not sure that's quite what I meant to say. I'm not interested in a team that's "entertaining" but doesn't actually win games. But winning isn't the only thing -- I'd like to win with a team that's trying something different, at least as long as I feel like there's a legitimate chance that it can work, and I do. (And no, I'm not D'Antoni posting under a fake name.)

I realize not everybody agrees with that sentiment. In fact, there are probably some who think that's exactly what's wrong with the team.

star, don't misinterpret what I'm saying either. I don't believe DA's system doesn't have a legit chance to work. We've definitely had our share of bad breaks in the playoffs, but I just can't give him more than another year to continue giving him my blind faith. I do believe we had a legit shot this year, but unfortunately, because of the suspensions, we still don't know if we really had what it took to beat SA. Now, we have even more talent and I think barring injuries, this team is is the odds on favorite to win this whole sucker, but if DA can't get them there and the bench is mis-used and KT (or whatever other big) is misused again, and we fall short, I just think it will be time to realize that his system has a fundamental flaw, much like Dallas recognized with Nellie. There's no doubt that that team has accomplished more with Avery, running a hybrid Nellie scheme, than they did with Nellie. I'll just wonder if we fall short again if we need the same type of change.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would rather take a chance with our style and lose than, say, play like the Spurs and win.

have you ever played a sport???

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can't think that anyone got seriously injured practicing threes, but I'll defer to your superior wisdon.

In another thread, I noted that Parker shot only 38 threes all last season - but seven in the finals while hitting four. In general, hitting a few threes is enough to force opponents to come out and guard the perimeter.

BTW, I think the switch of Diaw from starter to coming off the bench reflected the fact that Diaw's strength is as an Alvin Adams type center rather than an SF. Boris does quite well at the elbow but got into Amare's way.

have you ever gone out and shot 1000 3's? you HAVE to use your legs in those shots. if he's looking for LESS wear-and-tear on his legs how is hoisting up an extra hour's worth of shots going to acheive that? it's not about avoiding "serious injury" (but again, thanks for blowing a comment out of proportion . . . i can't believe how common that is on these boards - it's ridiculous), it's about heeding hill's wishes and EXPLICIT COMMENTS ON WHY HE CAME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm sorry, but we just haven't seen the unreasonable exit. My one complaint with Mike D'Antoni in this past playoffs was not playing Kurt Thomas more in game 1. That could have made a big difference of course, but I don't think he'll make that mistake again.



I know a lot of you guys on this message board would do a better job coaching the Phoenix Suns than Mike D'Antoni, but that doesn't change the fact that despite some issues we might have with some of his decisions he has done very, very well.

Joe

hmm, i think you're wrong on your first point. didn't someone here post something to the effect that dantoni said the reason they lost was b/c they didn't stay true to their style, hinting at the fact that they played into the spurs hands by playing kurt too much??? won't make the same mistake? sounds like he's mad he didn't make the mistake MORE.

and none of the posters are saying that hasn't done very well - again you're taking comments to the extreme. i swear someone offers some criticism and it's automatically translated into the worst case scenario. what we're saying is that usually a coach has a window during which he can use his talent to win and if he fails 3 or 4 times it is not unusual to be replaced and allow someone else to use that talent to win. cheese already laid out the nba examples and you can see it in the nfl as well . . . dungy got the bucs as far as he could, they canned him and brought in chucky who won the superbowl, and then similarly the colts couldn't quite get over with mora at the helm, so they canned him and brought in dungy (ironically) who got them the superbowl w as well. teams tend to lose concentration under a coach if they don't take the next step, and well, with 3 years of not making the finals, dantoni is walking that line in my, and several other posters', opinions. and that's NOT saying dantoni is a crappy coach or has underacheived, it's just taking a realistic look at sports and coaching.