sundevilscott
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I'll be the first to say it: Skelton IS our QBOF
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BurqueCardFan
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I just can't help but think, if Skelton was put in earlier in the season instead of Max Hall, we may be looking at a division championship with as bad as the division has been. I just think Skelton brings so much more to the table and how the coaches did not see it earlier is beyond me. Skelton has the physical tools and the intangibles whereas Max Hall only had the intangibles and DA only had the physical tools.
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I think what Skelton has done the best is that he VALUES the ball. He takes care of it by throwing it away when he has to and he secures it when he gets hit. When you have less than 2 turnovers in a game in the NFL you are going to have a good chance to win 90% of the time.
But does he have intangibles?
THIS.
And THIS.
I don't think we would necessarily be looking at a division championship, but we would certainly have a better idea of who he is as a QB. The coaches clearly didn't think he was ready, which may or may not have been the case.
And, just to be clear, DA had the intangibles and Max Hall had the moxie. At least that is how I remember it.
Or maybe Hall had both. Who knows? Just cut them and we won't have to worry about it anymore.
Early
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He had a solid game, but there was too much inconsistency to be really excited.
Good stuff:
1) Pocket presence, his ability to move around under pressure, he is a big guy and hard to bring down even for unblocked defenders, it's a very valuable skill, just like it is for Big Ben. Solid footwork as well.
2) Has solid throwing mechanics
3) He is cool. You can see the game doesn't get too big for him, and that is why he didn't collapse at the end.
Bad stuff:
1) Accuracy/Precision. He is extremely inaccurate or whatever it is. I've said that before the season, in preseason, after last game and after this one. Even when guys are totally open like today some of the passes are on the money but most you wonder that happened. He has the touch and he can place the ball on the money, so maybe we shouldn't even speak accuracy, but perhaps precision, which is more related to inability to reproduce the same accurate throw time after time. But Anderson has the same problem really, some of his throws had awesome touch, while most are pure garbage.
I think this is the most important trait for the QB, so there is no way he can be a great QB, if he doesn't work on that much more. And the reason he didn't had a spectacular game was solely due to this.
We saw it in this game. The game was basically over if Skelton just completed a few easy passes from start of 2nd to middle of 4th of the game and moved the chains. He was horrible for most of this strech and couldn't hit open recievers on very easy reads.
2) He waits for a guy to get open. He has shown no ability to make the read and throw before separation.
3) He is locking into recievers too much, but has also shown couple of times that he can make reads.
Conclusion is that he is physically ready, and also mentally (this is the most promising about him), he is a very good QB when it comes to this, but he needs to become much more accurate and scan the field much better if he is going to be a good QB.
I'm excited about Skelton as well as Hall, they both need a year or two of development at least, i get the sense that one of these guys will turn to be the real deal.
Bring in a veteran and draft a QB early (that is polished and ready) and this unit is very very promising.
Good stuff:
1) Pocket presence, his ability to move around under pressure, he is a big guy and hard to bring down even for unblocked defenders, it's a very valuable skill, just like it is for Big Ben. Solid footwork as well.
2) Has solid throwing mechanics
3) He is cool. You can see the game doesn't get too big for him, and that is why he didn't collapse at the end.
Bad stuff:
1) Accuracy/Precision. He is extremely inaccurate or whatever it is. I've said that before the season, in preseason, after last game and after this one. Even when guys are totally open like today some of the passes are on the money but most you wonder that happened. He has the touch and he can place the ball on the money, so maybe we shouldn't even speak accuracy, but perhaps precision, which is more related to inability to reproduce the same accurate throw time after time. But Anderson has the same problem really, some of his throws had awesome touch, while most are pure garbage.
I think this is the most important trait for the QB, so there is no way he can be a great QB, if he doesn't work on that much more. And the reason he didn't had a spectacular game was solely due to this.
We saw it in this game. The game was basically over if Skelton just completed a few easy passes from start of 2nd to middle of 4th of the game and moved the chains. He was horrible for most of this strech and couldn't hit open recievers on very easy reads.
2) He waits for a guy to get open. He has shown no ability to make the read and throw before separation.
3) He is locking into recievers too much, but has also shown couple of times that he can make reads.
Conclusion is that he is physically ready, and also mentally (this is the most promising about him), he is a very good QB when it comes to this, but he needs to become much more accurate and scan the field much better if he is going to be a good QB.
I'm excited about Skelton as well as Hall, they both need a year or two of development at least, i get the sense that one of these guys will turn to be the real deal.
Bring in a veteran and draft a QB early (that is polished and ready) and this unit is very very promising.
schutd
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He doesnt suck. Not at all. Hes just good enough to get you close, then break yer heart.
I dont not want him cause he sucks. Its more of a "why bother?" Orton isnt getting us past the first round.
Cardiac
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Have we not learned that the QB position is the most important in the NFL. Take the BPA in rd1 no matter what (maybe not WR).
I like the idea of Orton or McNabb to compete with Skelton and if they the FO has a high grade on a QB in rd1 when we pick then pull the trigger.
How many of us seriously think we wouldn't have won the west if Warner hadn't resigned? Sure we have some needs on D and at TE and along the O-line but a great QB helps a team over come a lot of flaws.
Exactly.I wish Skelton had gotten a shot to be the man back when Hall started against the Saints. Really? An UDFA over a 5th round pick?
I think we'd have done better and not had the huge losing streak and Skelton would be that much further along.
What was the coaching staff thinking with this move? Hall is basically Timmy Chang part 2. I know they said that JS was not ready, but Hall was?
Let's look at what some QBs have done as rookies and compare to their progression the next year to get a feel for what we can realistically expect Skelton to do if we go with him.
Peyton:
56.7% 26 TD 28 INT 71.2 Rating
62.1% 26 TD 15 INT 90.7 Rating
Big Ben:
66.4% 17 TD 11 INT 98.1 Rating
62.7% 17 TD 9 INT 98.6 Rating
Vick:
44.2% 2 TD 3 INT 62.7 Rating
54.9% 16 TD 8 INT 81.6 Rating
Flacco:
60.0% 14 TD 12 INT 80.3 Rating
63.1% 21 TD 12 INT 88.9 Rating
Ryan:
61.1% 16 TD 11 INT 87.7 Rating
58.3% 22 TD 14 INT 80.9 Rating
Cutler
59.1% 9 TD 5 INT 88.5 Rating
63.6% 20 TD 14 INT 88.1 Rating
Josh Freeman: (In pogress)
54.5% 10 TD 18 INT 59.8 Rating
59.0% 18 TD 6 INT 88.8 Rating
Eli Manning:
48.2% 6 TD 9 INT 55.4 Rating
52.8% 24 T 17 INT 75.9 Rating
Campbell:
53.1% 10 TD 6 INT 76.5 Rating
60.0% 12 TD 11 INT 77.6 Rating
Alex Smith:
50.9% 1 TD 11 INT40.8 Rating
58.1% 16 TD 16 INT 74.8 Rating
Palmer:
60.9% 18 TD 18 INT 77.3 Rating
67.8% 32 TD 12 INT 101.1 Rating
McNabb:
49.1% 8 TD 7 INT 60.1 Rating
58.0% 21 TD 13 INT 77.8 Rating
Sanchez: (In Progress)
53.8% 12 TD 20 INT 63.0 Rating
54.0% 16 TD 12 INT 74.6 Rating
Average of these guys:
55.2% 11 TD 12 INT 70.9 Rating
59.6% 20 TD 12 INT 84.6 Rating
Skelton after 3.25 games:
45.5% 1 TD 1 INT 57.2 Rating
Projecting things is difficult. You can look at each of those individual players and if Skelton reminds you of any of them, use them as precedent. It's interesting that the guys who looked the worst their rookie year here made the biggest jumps. I will say that looking at all these rookie campaigns makes me uncomfortable with drafting a QB like Mallet or Newton who has a lot of work to do if we want to win next year. Skelton's progression should put him past those guys for next season. Knowing what we know about Whiz and his love for vets, drafting a project type QB would probably put us in another Leinart situation.
Peyton:
56.7% 26 TD 28 INT 71.2 Rating
62.1% 26 TD 15 INT 90.7 Rating
Big Ben:
66.4% 17 TD 11 INT 98.1 Rating
62.7% 17 TD 9 INT 98.6 Rating
Vick:
44.2% 2 TD 3 INT 62.7 Rating
54.9% 16 TD 8 INT 81.6 Rating
Flacco:
60.0% 14 TD 12 INT 80.3 Rating
63.1% 21 TD 12 INT 88.9 Rating
Ryan:
61.1% 16 TD 11 INT 87.7 Rating
58.3% 22 TD 14 INT 80.9 Rating
Cutler
59.1% 9 TD 5 INT 88.5 Rating
63.6% 20 TD 14 INT 88.1 Rating
Josh Freeman: (In pogress)
54.5% 10 TD 18 INT 59.8 Rating
59.0% 18 TD 6 INT 88.8 Rating
Eli Manning:
48.2% 6 TD 9 INT 55.4 Rating
52.8% 24 T 17 INT 75.9 Rating
Campbell:
53.1% 10 TD 6 INT 76.5 Rating
60.0% 12 TD 11 INT 77.6 Rating
Alex Smith:
50.9% 1 TD 11 INT40.8 Rating
58.1% 16 TD 16 INT 74.8 Rating
Palmer:
60.9% 18 TD 18 INT 77.3 Rating
67.8% 32 TD 12 INT 101.1 Rating
McNabb:
49.1% 8 TD 7 INT 60.1 Rating
58.0% 21 TD 13 INT 77.8 Rating
Sanchez: (In Progress)
53.8% 12 TD 20 INT 63.0 Rating
54.0% 16 TD 12 INT 74.6 Rating
Average of these guys:
55.2% 11 TD 12 INT 70.9 Rating
59.6% 20 TD 12 INT 84.6 Rating
Skelton after 3.25 games:
45.5% 1 TD 1 INT 57.2 Rating
Projecting things is difficult. You can look at each of those individual players and if Skelton reminds you of any of them, use them as precedent. It's interesting that the guys who looked the worst their rookie year here made the biggest jumps. I will say that looking at all these rookie campaigns makes me uncomfortable with drafting a QB like Mallet or Newton who has a lot of work to do if we want to win next year. Skelton's progression should put him past those guys for next season. Knowing what we know about Whiz and his love for vets, drafting a project type QB would probably put us in another Leinart situation.
Cardiac
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Nice research.
I don't jump to your ML conclusion and I'll go with the Eagles scenario.
Pick up a vet to battle with Skelton and have Newton or Mallet developing in the wings just in case. Then your odds of having fixed the QB situation have improved dramatically. If Skelton is the answer then at worst you have trade bait at a position that commands big compensation. The rookie 1st rd pick will have time to develop.
If Skelton isn't the answer and we don't draft a QB then our plan is??????
Arizona's Finest
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I still draft Newton if available and bring in Bulger. I draft a 1st round QB NOT TO COMPETE BUT TO GIVE HIM THE JOB EVENTUALLY (had to preface that before I got yelled at )
I like Skelton and think he can improve. But I am okay with him being #2 or #3 because I would rather have the problem of too many good QB's then not enough. I think we need to upgrade our OL and LB's through FA, not through the draft. I am okay with Newton sitting and learning for 1-2 seasons with a guy like Bulger or McNabb being the starter and Skelton #2 (does anyone think Wiz is going to do it any other way with a rookie QB?)
And like Early mentioned as many heady things as Skelton did this past game (the missed snap and knocking away the ball, the getting out of bounds during the 2 minute drill) I looked at McGee and watched him complete 2-3 timing passes that Skelton just couldn't/wouldn't make, those were paramount to this offense during the Warner years.
I think the things is we need to open the offense the last game and quit worrying about winning so much and playing it safe. I think the last drive was where Wiz actually let him look downfield multiples plays a drive and it netted positive results. Lets let him push the ball this next game and see what happens. Whatever it is he needs to get Breaston and Fitz the ball.
And jesus replace these jokes of TE's. Like 5 dropped passes yesterday.
) I like Skelton and think he can improve. But I am okay with him being #2 or #3 because I would rather have the problem of too many good QB's then not enough. I think we need to upgrade our OL and LB's through FA, not through the draft. I am okay with Newton sitting and learning for 1-2 seasons with a guy like Bulger or McNabb being the starter and Skelton #2 (does anyone think Wiz is going to do it any other way with a rookie QB?)
And like Early mentioned as many heady things as Skelton did this past game (the missed snap and knocking away the ball, the getting out of bounds during the 2 minute drill) I looked at McGee and watched him complete 2-3 timing passes that Skelton just couldn't/wouldn't make, those were paramount to this offense during the Warner years.
I think the things is we need to open the offense the last game and quit worrying about winning so much and playing it safe. I think the last drive was where Wiz actually let him look downfield multiples plays a drive and it netted positive results. Lets let him push the ball this next game and see what happens. Whatever it is he needs to get Breaston and Fitz the ball.
And jesus replace these jokes of TE's. Like 5 dropped passes yesterday.
I still draft Newton if available and bring in Bulger. I draft a 1st round QB NOT TO COMPETE BUT TO GIVE HIM THE JOB EVENTUALLY (had to preface that before I got yelled at
I like Skelton and think he can improve. But I am okay with him being #2 or #3 because I would rather have the problem of too many good QB's then not enough. I think we need to upgrade our OL and LB's through FA, not through the draft. I am okay with Newton sitting and learning for 1-2 seasons with a guy like Bulger or McNabb being the starter and Skelton #2 (does anyone think Wiz is going to do it any other way with a rookie QB?)
And like Early mentioned as many heady things as Skelton did this past game (the missed snap and knocking away the ball, the getting out of bounds during the 2 minute drill) I looked at McGee and watched him complete 2-3 timing passes that Skelton just couldn't/wouldn't make, those were paramount to this offense during the Warner years.
I think the things is we need to open the offense the last game and quit worrying about winning so much and playing it safe. I think the last drive was where Wiz actually let him look downfield multiples plays a drive and it netted positive results. Lets let him push the ball this next game and see what happens. Whatever it is he needs to get Breaston and Fitz the ball.
And jesus replace these jokes of TE's. Like 5 dropped passes yesterday.
I agree,.....I would far rather have the Brees/Rivers problem than the Anderson/Hall problem.....if we end up with a couple of good young signal callers who are both very good,......then we get draft picks when one of them wants to go..... more and more I am leaning towards the "draft a QB every year" philosophy...it would be neat to have to sneak a guy onto the practice squad who could be a solid #2 on most teams.
I think we still draft high enough to get Newton,...but if not,...then go BPA....hopefully best linebacker available,...then get a second tier QB with our #2 pick which is nearly first round anyway.
clif
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Fine Shane. Kyle Orton may not "suck" but he sure as hell is not a difference maker. That's what I want. I want a difference maker. I want someone who is going to lead this team for the next 10 to 15. I'm tired of these bandaids. So what if Orton is out there. The Broncos have lost something like 17 of their last 22. He would be nothing but a stop gap. It is time for the Cards to do what most successful teams do. Draft a top tier QB. We are not going to find Tom Brady lurking around. Skelton is ok, but there is no way I am putting my teams future in his hand after a 1 td performance against the 28th ranked pass D. No way.
I swear I don't see the accuracy everyone keeps harping on. Even the announcers kept pumping this up. Along with that he is not even seeing the field real well right now. He keeps missing a wide open Fitz. You think Fitz is going to stand for 1 catch games next year? Did Breaston even play? I swear I didnt even know he was in the game until late when he made that play to save the fumble.
I keep thinking of the Jets. They had Clemens who showed promise and very well could have been the guy in New york, but the Jets correctly realized that Clemens was limited and they needed a top guy. Sure their defense is light years ahead of where we are, but they didn't hesitate to get a top QB. A franchise QB. Not some game manager.
I swear I don't see the accuracy everyone keeps harping on. Even the announcers kept pumping this up. Along with that he is not even seeing the field real well right now. He keeps missing a wide open Fitz. You think Fitz is going to stand for 1 catch games next year? Did Breaston even play? I swear I didnt even know he was in the game until late when he made that play to save the fumble.
I keep thinking of the Jets. They had Clemens who showed promise and very well could have been the guy in New york, but the Jets correctly realized that Clemens was limited and they needed a top guy. Sure their defense is light years ahead of where we are, but they didn't hesitate to get a top QB. A franchise QB. Not some game manager.
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Arizona's Finest
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I like Skelton better then you, but I agree with this 100% otherwise.
clif
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It's not that I don't like Skelton, I'm just not enamored with him (sound familiar) I said the same thing about Whiz earlier in the offseason and was lambasted for it. Now more people are on the wagon.
RugbyMuffin
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Not yet
Thoughts on why not, right now.
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2374553&postcount=35
Thoughts on why not, right now.
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2374553&postcount=35
RugbyMuffin
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I am with Clif. I like Skelton. He may be Mr. Right, but not Mr. Right now.
I think IF Skelton is going to be the Cardinals QB, it will have to be the John Skelton two years from now that does it.
He needs to be polished, IMO. We have Skelton for 4 more years, so nothing needs to be decided right now.
I can say that I am 100% confident with him as a #2 next year. After this year, it is nice to know that we at least have 1 QB that can win in this league.
crisper57
Open the Roof!
Love him in the pocket. Love how he can scramble. Just needs work on his passes.
IMO vision is what he is lacking most. The game has not completely slowed down for him yet, so he focuses a lot on one side of the field. But in most cases it just takes time on the field to get that in order.
Throwing WR's open, anticipating where they will be, will get better with time as well.......do not know if he will ever be a lights out QB,....but he can be adequate........ but in all honesty I hope our team does not settle for adequate.
1 Skelton
2 some old pretty much washed up dude
3 Newton
2 some old pretty much washed up dude
3 Newton
splitsecond
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Skelton certainly had his set of troubles yesterday, but there are a TON of things helping create those difficulties:
1. Lack of reps and limited knowledge of the playbook, created by lack of reps and limited playcalling.
2. Absolutely horrific Offensive line execution. NOTHING is working up front. Guys aren't executing, the block schemes getting blown up. My dad, who doesn't watch much football, said on multiple times he saw guys in red jerseys standing around while Skelton got pressured. Grimm is a total failure at this point.
3. Run plays are not working. This is a combination of terrible execution up front, terrible scheming up front, and terrible run play calling. Guess who is in charge of this? The hall of fame disappointment. I think we have guys who can execute, but the coaching is just abysmal. You get this portion of the game going, you are going to give skelton a LOT more time to cause problems for teams by going deep downfield, something he very clearly has the ability to do better than any of the other QB's on our roster.
4. Poor to awful pass calling. I doubt Miller will be back next year. But then again, if Grimm was doing HIS job, Miller might have a better opportunity to call plays that need more time to develop. I don't think he quite knows how to adjust to defenses at this point in his career, but the piss poor effort and effectiveness up front isn't helping much.
5. Lack of reps with the starting offense. There is a reason he keyed on Roberts so much: he knows what Roberts will do on the field. That is something that it took Warner most of 2007 and 1/2 of 2008 to develop with the guys on the field. He has to learn this and develop trust in the receivers to really be able to make the reads and anticipate. To say he hasn't shown that ability yet is true, but hardly his fault. I don't think there is a QB in history who just naturally knows exactly what each receiver will do after they release from the line. Warner certainly didn't, but when he became familiar with is WR's and trusted them, that is when he became a monster, both in StL and here.
1. Lack of reps and limited knowledge of the playbook, created by lack of reps and limited playcalling.
2. Absolutely horrific Offensive line execution. NOTHING is working up front. Guys aren't executing, the block schemes getting blown up. My dad, who doesn't watch much football, said on multiple times he saw guys in red jerseys standing around while Skelton got pressured. Grimm is a total failure at this point.
3. Run plays are not working. This is a combination of terrible execution up front, terrible scheming up front, and terrible run play calling. Guess who is in charge of this? The hall of fame disappointment. I think we have guys who can execute, but the coaching is just abysmal. You get this portion of the game going, you are going to give skelton a LOT more time to cause problems for teams by going deep downfield, something he very clearly has the ability to do better than any of the other QB's on our roster.
4. Poor to awful pass calling. I doubt Miller will be back next year. But then again, if Grimm was doing HIS job, Miller might have a better opportunity to call plays that need more time to develop. I don't think he quite knows how to adjust to defenses at this point in his career, but the piss poor effort and effectiveness up front isn't helping much.
5. Lack of reps with the starting offense. There is a reason he keyed on Roberts so much: he knows what Roberts will do on the field. That is something that it took Warner most of 2007 and 1/2 of 2008 to develop with the guys on the field. He has to learn this and develop trust in the receivers to really be able to make the reads and anticipate. To say he hasn't shown that ability yet is true, but hardly his fault. I don't think there is a QB in history who just naturally knows exactly what each receiver will do after they release from the line. Warner certainly didn't, but when he became familiar with is WR's and trusted them, that is when he became a monster, both in StL and here.
Arizona's Finest
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I would do this
1) McNabb - solid vet who provides stability under center and is not as bad as that mess of a situation in WAS would have you think. AZ would be like heaven comparatively. Not only that but he would win this division as bad as it is IMO. He would come cheap and on a make good to a place hes comfortable. I alos think FItz would be a big supporter of this move.
2) Skelton - Solid #2 and if hes that good, he has the chance to beat out a flawed McNabb and never give up the reigns. If he stumbles even a little....
3) Newton - You have the ultimate project guy to sit for a year or 2 while we get some wins and resign Fitz and can even bring him in Year 1 ala Tebow for goaline packages. Then once he is ready, you unleash him. And for some reason if he is the best QB starting Game 1 his rookie year above the other 2 guys???
Well then you start counting Super Bowl rings.
After this past season, I leave as little chance as possible to not have everything taken care of under center going forward.
I could live with that.
splitsecond
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I like this, but is this doable considering we REALLY need to use that 1st rounder on pass rush or OL?
Considering where our second round pick will be we should be able to get an impact type OL or LB with that pick.
