I'll be the first to say it: Skelton IS our QBOF

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I totally agree with you about how Skelton looks on the field. He seems like he belongs out there, but I need to see more.

So we're saying the same thing.

Maybe Jake Locker sucks, but for a guy who was a consensus #1 overall draft pick to get him 36th overall? I'd say it's worth the risk if you get a pass rusher or OT in the first round. Worse comes to worst, you have a replacement for Adrian Wilson in a couple of years.

I don't care where the scouts put Jake Locker in 2006. I care where they do in 2011 and Locker has been nothing short of disappointing barely showing improvement since he came to Washington. And that's with getting tutored for the last few years by Sarkisian who has managed to put five QB's in the NFL just this decade.

 

[Gaddabout]

I don't care where the scouts put Jake Locker in 2006. I care where they do in 2011 and Locker has been nothing short of disappointing barely showing improvement since he came to Washington. And that's with getting tutored for the last few years by Sarkisian who has managed to put five QB's in the NFL just this decade.

Absolutely. Locker is a late-round project at best.

When he threw for 71 yards against Nebraska, people were giving the Cornhuskers' defense all the credit. But then he had a 64-yard effort against Stanford and a 68-yard outing against UCLA, both home games.

Looking at his career, I'm not sure what justified the hype other than he's athletically gifted. Big deal. He's never completed better than 58 percent of his passes in any year, chronically injured, and a disaster in big games.

This is a kid you take a pass on in any round. Don't get sucked into the combine hype, where he will always impress.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Before 2009 I would've said Locker will go top 10. After all he was about to get one on one coaching from a guy who put Carson Palmer, Matt Leinart, Matt Cassel, John David Booty, and Mark Sanchez in the NFL in the past eight years. But he barely got better as an upperclassmen despite this tutoring.

Pass. So will the Cards too I'm guessing.

 

[Duckjake]

Just think though that if Skelator is the guy what it does for the organization. We have a guy who can start at QB for us for the next 4 years before we release him because it will cost too much money to sign him to a 2nd contract.

Just kidding. Seriously, it will free up the team's draft picks and free agent dollars to go toward finally building a solid defense and offensive line. I just hope there is somebody in the organization with the skills to do so because it hasn't happened since the CKW gang arrived in 2007.

What a sad situation we have been in. We have the players to win big time in 2005 and 2006 but our coaches are awful. Then we get the coaching to win but after two years of success age and free agency take our players.

Oh well, two division titles, an NFC Championship, and the wildest Wildcard game ever, and dealing the Cowboys TWO CRUSHING defeats. After all the years of heartbreak and frustration, not a bad 4 year run if you ask me.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I just hope there is somebody in the organization with the skills to do so because it hasn't happened since the CKW gang arrived in 2007.

That's a load of bull. Our drafts sucked much, much worse before Denny Green arrived. And if they've gone down hill, it's just a function of a piss poor scouting staff.

(It may look like I pick out your posts to attack, but I think you're a pretty cool dude. I just think you're wrong a lot )

 

[Duckjake]

That's a load of bull. Our drafts sucked much, much worse before Denny Green arrived. And if they've gone down hill, it's just a function of a piss poor scouting staff.

(It may look like I pick out your posts to attack, but I think you're a pretty cool dude. I just think you're wrong a lot )

First of all I was not just talking about the draft but being able to put together a solid defense and offensive line overall.

But that's OK because I also think you are wrong a lot. If you really think our defense and offensive line play have been among the league's best the last 4 seasons then I simply don't know what to say.

After all the Cards have only cut two defensive players they drafted, one in round 2 and one in round 3 who never played a down for Arizona. That's some good stuff there. As for the offensive line well that speaks for itself.

 

[Krangodnzr]

First of all I was not just talking about the draft but being able to put together a solid defense and offensive line overall.

But that's OK because I also think you are wrong a lot. If you really think our defense and offensive line play have been among the league's best the last 4 seasons then I simply don't know what to say.

After all the Cards have only cut two defensive players they drafted, one in round 2 and one in round 3 who never played a down for Arizona. That's some good stuff there. As for the offensive line well that speaks for itself.

IMO our defense is not well suited to a 3-4, and I put the blame mostly on the front office's inability to find players to fit the scheme. The coaching staff has shown a lot of 4-3 looks over the past few seasons, so I don't think the coaching staff hasn't tried to cover this deficiency.

I think the stark difference in our views, is that you blame Whisenhunt for this mess while I blame the front office. The front office gets the coach the players he needs, and for the most part I think Whisenhunt has had pretty good results (1 Super Bowl Appearance, 2 NFC West titles) with some very flawed teams.

Offensive line..we haven't used may picks to address the problems on the team. 4 in 4 years (Brown, Keith, Johnson, and Canfield) is not a whole lot of picks to address a weakness. But we've also had glaring weaknesses in the secondary (mostly addressed), defensive line (mostly addressed), RB (addressed). Overall I'd give our personnel department a C, but that's heavily influenced by the success of the team.

 

[Duckjake]

Offensive line..we haven't used may picks to address the problems on the team. 4 in 4 years (Brown, Keith, Johnson, and Canfield) is not a whole lot of picks to address a weakness. But we've also had glaring weaknesses in the secondary (mostly addressed), defensive line (mostly addressed), RB (addressed). Overall I'd give our personnel department a C, but that's heavily influenced by the success of the team.
__________________

This is an area where I disagree with a majority of the posters on ASFN not just you. I believe that for the first time in 25 years the Cards finally had an offensive line that was, while not great was in no small part, because they had been together for two seasons, good enough for us to win consistently.

Then for some unknown reason the Cards decided to repeat the Leonard Davis mistake and move Levi Brown to Left Tackle and pay good money to Faneca to replace Reggie Wells and his 7 years of experience with the Cardinals totally remaking the line.

Am I wrong? I would offer up this horrendous season with 44 sacks and a drop off in production from both our primary running backs as proof.

 

[Buckybird]

This is an area where I disagree with a majority of the posters on ASFN not just you. I believe that for the first time in 25 years the Cards finally had an offensive line that was, while not great was in no small part, because they had been together for two seasons, good enough for us to win consistently.

Then for some unknown reason the Cards decided to repeat the Leonard Davis mistake and move Levi Brown to Left Tackle and pay good money to Faneca to replace Reggie Wells and his 7 years of experience with the Cardinals totally remaking the line.

Am I wrong? I would offer up this horrendous season with 44 sacks and a drop off in production from both our primary running backs as proof.

Duck, You & I have been on the same page of this all year. I said it all the back in training camp.

Ask any Oline coach & he will tell you continuity is a huge ingredient in the success of Oline play. I still to this day don't understand how a team can move its worst pass blocker to LT!!!

 

[Krangodnzr]

This is an area where I disagree with a majority of the posters on ASFN not just you. I believe that for the first time in 25 years the Cards finally had an offensive line that was, while not great was in no small part, because they had been together for two seasons, good enough for us to win consistently.

Then for some unknown reason the Cards decided to repeat the Leonard Davis mistake and move Levi Brown to Left Tackle and pay good money to Faneca to replace Reggie Wells and his 7 years of experience with the Cardinals totally remaking the line.

Am I wrong? I would offer up this horrendous season with 44 sacks and a drop off in production from both our primary running backs as proof.

Wrong again.

The loss of Kurt Warner and his ability to get rid of the ball in a hurry is the reason we're giving up more sacks. Additionally teams have no reason NOT to blitz; Kurt Warner made people pay for blitzing last year so teams were much more hesitant to blitz all game long. Reggie Wells sucked, and while Faneca hasn't been a great upgrade, I'd contend he has played better this year than Wells did last season. Moving Levi was a was; our LT play last year was just as bad as it is this year, but again the Kurt Warner factor plays apart.

Many "experts" pointed this out last year, that Kurt Warner made our offensive line look better than it was and that without Kurt we'd need the line to play a lot better.

The drop off in production from the running backs is attributable to 1) facing more 7-8 man fronts. Watch the games, you see a lot less nickel and dime defenses than what we faced the past few years. That's obvious. 2) Less overall rushes, since we can't sustain drives, not because we lost the great Reggie Wells LOL.

Ever look at the website Profootballfocus.com that watches every snap of every game and watches every player? Our offensive as a whole were all ranked near the bottom last year. Every single one of them. And their conclusion? Kurt Warner made them look better. It's like comparing the Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen to the team after they left.

 

[Duckjake]

Wrong again.

The loss of Kurt Warner and his ability to get rid of the ball in a hurry is the reason we're giving up more sacks. Additionally teams have no reason NOT to blitz; Kurt Warner made people pay for blitzing last year so teams were much more hesitant to blitz all game long. Reggie Wells sucked, and while Faneca hasn't been a great upgrade, I'd contend he has played better this year than Wells did last season. Moving Levi was a was; our LT play last year was just as bad as it is this year, but again the Kurt Warner factor plays apart.

Many "experts" pointed this out last year, that Kurt Warner made our offensive line look better than it was and that without Kurt we'd need the line to play a lot better.

The drop off in production from the running backs is attributable to 1) facing more 7-8 man fronts. Watch the games, you see a lot less nickel and dime defenses than what we faced the past few years. That's obvious. 2) Less overall rushes, since we can't sustain drives, not because we lost the great Reggie Wells LOL.

Ever look at the website Profootballfocus.com that watches every snap of every game and watches every player? Our offensive as a whole were all ranked near the bottom last year. Every single one of them. And their conclusion? Kurt Warner made them look better. It's like comparing the Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen to the team after they left.

Total nonsense. Everyone on the team played better last year. Not just Warner. Kurt had almost 900 fewer yards passing in 2009 compared to 2008.

Our offense ranked near the bottom last year! What a laugher. The Cards put 45 points on one of the top 3 defenses in the NFL, in the playoffs. Hightower and Wells combined for 1391 yards rushing while being last in the NFL in rushing attempts. Over 400 yards more than TH and Edge had the year before.

The Cards scored 43 passing and rushing TDs only 2 fewer than 2008 when they had 900 more passing yards, they have 18 this season. Maybe you meant profootballoutoffocus.com

 

[kerouac9]

Krang used to be a really good, smart poster. I don't know what happened, but his defenses of Whis have made him sound unhinged.

According to FootballOutsiders.com, the offensive line went from 16th in rushing and 7th in pass pro in 2009 to 25th in run blocking and 28th in pass pro in 2010. And he's going to blame the front office for bringing in Alan Faneca and Joey Porter? Give me a break.

 

[Duckjake]

Krang used to be a really good, smart poster. I don't know what happened, but his defenses of Whis have made him sound unhinged.

According to FootballOutsiders.com, the offensive line went from 16th in rushing and 7th in pass pro in 2009 to 25th in run blocking and 28th in pass pro in 2010. And he's going to blame the front office for bringing in Alan Faneca and Joey Porter? Give me a break.

I'm missing something here. Do you mind explaining what you mean. Sorry don't mean to be dumb but I'm old now so I have an excuse.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Total nonsense. Everyone on the team played better last year. Not just Warner. Kurt had almost 900 fewer yards passing in 2009 compared to 2008.

Our offense ranked near the bottom last year! What a laugher. The Cards put 45 points on one of the top 3 defenses in the NFL, in the playoffs. Hightower and Wells combined for 1391 yards rushing while being last in the NFL in rushing attempts. Over 400 yards more than TH and Edge had the year before.

The Cards scored 43 passing and rushing TDs only 2 fewer than 2008 when they had 900 more passing yards, they have 18 this season. Maybe you meant profootballoutoffocus.com

Ok dude, if you can't see the difference between our offense last year (Kurt Warner) and this year (DeWreck, Max "I get hurt every start" Hall, and Skelton) then I don't know what to tell you.

An elite QB makes EVERYONE around him better.

It's football 101. I don't want to piss you off, but your running game isn't going to be as effective without the threat of the pass (key word is AS, I know your anal retentive ). A QB with a quick release and good pocket awareness will get sacked less. It's simple logic.

Our offensive line was terrible last year, marginally better (if not equally as bad) than this season. Everyone knew this last season, and quite a few prognosticators said our OL was going to be a major issue. That's why a lot of mock drafts had us drafting a lineman high.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm missing something here. Do you mind explaining what you mean. Sorry don't mean to be dumb but I'm old now so I have an excuse.

I'm lost too! No idea what Kerouac is getting at here!

Kerouac: I just think Whisenhunt isn't the fall guy here; The mistake I blame on him is cutting Leinart. Other than that I blame most other issues on the front office.

I'm not saying CKW is the greatest Coach ever, but just reading this board, you'd think he was coach Mac all over again. His career record with this team is clearly indicative that CKW can win and win big in the NFL. He's made some mistakes, but I think that front office hasn't acquitted themselves for the many errors over the years.

I mean, do you honestly believe we have a good front office? If Whis is prone to some of these personnel mistakes, why not have a strong personnel department that aren't a bunch of yes men, that can question his decisions? As good as Bill Belichick has been, do you think his front office is better or worse than ours?

 

[conraddobler]

I'm lost too! No idea what Kerouac is getting at here!

Kerouac: I just think Whisenhunt isn't the fall guy here; The mistake I blame on him is cutting Leinart. Other than that I blame most other issues on the front office.

I'm not saying CKW is the greatest Coach ever, but just reading this board, you'd think he was coach Mac all over again. His career record with this team is clearly indicative that CKW can win and win big in the NFL. He's made some mistakes, but I think that front office hasn't acquitted themselves for the many errors over the years.

I mean, do you honestly believe we have a good front office? If Whis is prone to some of these personnel mistakes, why not have a strong personnel department that aren't a bunch of yes men, that can question his decisions? As good as Bill Belichick has been, do you think his front office is better or worse than ours?

Honestly I think you're too easy on Whiz and some other people are too soon on calling for his job.

He's brought in a ton of Pittsburg players that haven't gotten it done, IMO.

The FO is woeful IMO in it's own way and has made the situation worse IMO.

Cutting Matt was awesomely stupid IMO when it was done, I mean awesomely, there's no other reason you do that unless you honestly think you have a better chance with DA and that my friends is a frightening lapse in judgement IMO.

If he thought he could talk the FO into Bulger after signing DA and prior to cutting Matt or after, don't remember the timing there, then he's dumber than he looks in terms of knowing this FO.

One thing they are is stubborn to a fault, they might have felt manipulated and there is ONE THING they never allow a coach to do and that's tell them what's what.

If they told him ride with Matt and he still cut him then he got exactly what I figured he'd get, DA or bust.

I don't know what the heck people were thinking but if anyone thinks this FO can be bullied into doing something they don't want to do they don't know this FO.

 

[Cardiac]

Ok dude, if you can't see the difference between our offense last year (Kurt Warner) and this year (DeWreck, Max "I get hurt every start" Hall, and Skelton) then I don't know what to tell you.

An elite QB makes EVERYONE around him better.

It's football 101. I don't want to piss you off, but your running game isn't going to be as effective without the threat of the pass (key word is AS, I know your anal retentive ). A QB with a quick release and good pocket awareness will get sacked less. It's simple logic.

Our offensive line was terrible last year, marginally better (if not equally as bad) than this season. Everyone knew this last season, and quite a few prognosticators said our OL was going to be a major issue. That's why a lot of mock drafts had us drafting a lineman high.

I'm with ya Krang. Let's also consider how few sacks Skelton has taken. I contend that DA and Hall were sacks waiting to happen.

 

[Zeno]

If he thought he could talk the FO into Bulger after signing DA and prior to cutting Matt or after, don't remember the timing there, then he's dumber than he looks in terms of knowing this FO.

I just still don't get how nobody questions the fact that Whisenhunt thought Bulger was the answer here--if he was plan A and DA plan B and Whitehurst plan C--ugh. Bulger who has 27 TDs and 35 INTs in his last 35 starts...who hasn't completed 60% of his passes since 2006...the Rams got better production from a rookie QB this year compared to what they got from Bulger the past 3--and it isn't like their offensive players all of a sudden got a lot better. Bradford is still throwing to second tier WRs but he is showing more poise and leadership than Bulger did. He is NOT Kurt Warner--they both played QB for the Rams and that is where the comparison ends.

I am just tired of the excuse--"Whisenhunt wanted Bulger he was stuck with DA". Bulger stinks too, not at a DA level but he hasn't been good for years. Not to mention is brittle body would have been broken 3 or 4 games in to the season.

 

[Dback Jon]

I just still don't get how nobody questions the fact that Whisenhunt thought Bulger was the answer here--if he was plan A and DA plan B and Whitehurst plan C--ugh. Bulger who has 27 TDs and 35 INTs in his last 35 starts...who hasn't completed 60% of his passes since 2006...the Rams got better production from a rookie QB this year compared to what they got from Bulger the past 3--and it isn't like their offensive players all of a sudden got a lot better. Bradford is still throwing to second tier WRs but he is showing more poise and leadership than Bulger did. He is NOT Kurt Warner--they both played QB for the Rams and that is where the comparison ends.

I am just tired of the excuse--"Whisenhunt wanted Bulger he was stuck with DA". Bulger stinks too, not at a DA level but he hasn't been good for years. Not to mention is brittle body would have been broken 3 or 4 games in to the season.

+1

 

[Matt L]

Well it is all pretty simple to me: The players who are drafted/signed/traded for that work out were Whiz's calls and the players who stink were Rod Grave's decisions.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm lost too! No idea what Kerouac is getting at here!

Kerouac: I just think Whisenhunt isn't the fall guy here; The mistake I blame on him is cutting Leinart. Other than that I blame most other issues on the front office.

I'm not saying CKW is the greatest Coach ever, but just reading this board, you'd think he was coach Mac all over again. His career record with this team is clearly indicative that CKW can win and win big in the NFL. He's made some mistakes, but I think that front office hasn't acquitted themselves for the many errors over the years.

I mean, do you honestly believe we have a good front office? If Whis is prone to some of these personnel mistakes, why not have a strong personnel department that aren't a bunch of yes men, that can question his decisions? As good as Bill Belichick has been, do you think his front office is better or worse than ours?

1) You blame the front office but not Whis for not having a strong roster, but surely bringing in aged players like Joey Porter and Alan Faneca (who has been standing around in pass pro on nearly every sack this season) are clearly not the case of the front office standing up and forcing players on Whis that he doesn't want.

2) Who is saying that Whis is Coach Mac 2.0? I'm certainly not. But he's clearly too enamored of veterans who are past their prime and sticking with veterans because they're veterans. I'm not saying he's a bad coach, but I'm saying that he's not flexible enough, and it's cost the team. As I said, there are tons of offensive-minded head coaches who find ways to protect bad/inexperienced quarterbacks without asking them to throw the ball 34 times a game.

3) I don't think that Whis should surround himself with yes men, but he has. Both in the front office (although I'm not sure how you can call Steve Keim a yes man, do you want the front office to go out and get players the coaching staff doesn't like/want?) and--more importantly--on his own staff. There's too much groupthink in the offensive staff--a bunch of Pittsburgh guys who don't know what to do when the Pittsburgh stuff doesn't work. What was good about Haley is that he wasn't from that background, so he could offer some alternatives when things were going poorly. Even Warner brought a different perspective to the offense and was willing to share it. But Whis doesn't have a counter-balance in his own staff.

I think it's unfair for you to place blame on the front office for not counterbalancing Whis but not demerit him for not having the wisdom to build hos own staff with people who just might disagree with him about something. Can you imagine a coach from our current offensive staff moving upward if they were fired here besides maybe Russ Grimm?

 

[Duckjake]

Ok dude, if you can't see the difference between our offense last year (Kurt Warner) and this year (DeWreck, Max "I get hurt every start" Hall, and Skelton) then I don't know what to tell you.

An elite QB makes EVERYONE around him better.

It's football 101. I don't want to piss you off, but your running game isn't going to be as effective without the threat of the pass (key word is AS, I know your anal retentive ). A QB with a quick release and good pocket awareness will get sacked less. It's simple logic.

Our offensive line was terrible last year, marginally better (if not equally as bad) than this season. Everyone knew this last season, and quite a few prognosticators said our OL was going to be a major issue. That's why a lot of mock drafts had us drafting a lineman high.

I guess Warner didn't have that quick release when he was sacked 39 times in only 277 pass attempts with the Giants in 2004.

You need to change your screen name to KrangtheScarecrow.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm with ya Krang. Let's also consider how few sacks Skelton has taken. I contend that DA and Hall were sacks waiting to happen.

I'd contend that Skelton's pocket presence is just that good. That kid is extremely hard to take down, feels the rush coming, steps up in the pocket and can avoid the blitz.

That's the area that excites me about Skelton. IF he can get his reads down, set his feet better, and see the field better, he's got a chance to be a heck of a QB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I guess Warner didn't have that quick release when he was sacked 39 times in only 277 pass attempts with the Giants in 2004.

You need to change your screen name to KrangtheScarecrow.

LOL

So much changed from Warner in 2004 to the Warner of 2008 and 2009.

Not only was he playing with a better offensive cast, but Warner's confidence and fundamentals improved dramatically. Warner was getting hit constantly last season and I think it's ridiculous you'd even claim last year's offensive line was any good.

 

[Krangodnzr]

1) You blame the front office but not Whis for not having a strong roster, but surely bringing in aged players like Joey Porter and Alan Faneca (who has been standing around in pass pro on nearly every sack this season) are clearly not the case of the front office standing up and forcing players on Whis that he doesn't want.

Who else COULD we have signed other than Joey Porter to play OLB? Honestly I don't think anyone was available, and since the front office failed to adequately address that position for 3 years they were kind of forced to sign SOMEONE who could play it and Porter was about the only veteran out there. Faneca I'll give you, even Profootballfocus.com was puzzled by the move since Faneca had rated out as one of the worst guards for the past two seasons.

Some of our personnel moves (like Porter) I'd contend were desperate reactions to piss poor personnel moves for years. Faneca...well I'd say he was a side grade from Reggie Wells, a guy I know you've never liked either.

2) Who is saying that Whis is Coach Mac 2.0? I'm certainly not. But he's clearly too enamored of veterans who are past their prime and sticking with veterans because they're veterans. I'm not saying he's a bad coach, but I'm saying that he's not flexible enough, and it's cost the team. As I said, there are tons of offensive-minded head coaches who find ways to protect bad/inexperienced quarterbacks without asking them to throw the ball 34 times a game.

Yes he is too enamored with veterans, but I'd say that our offensive line is just that bad that we can't protect bad/inexperienced qbs. I'm amazed our running game has put up the numbers it has...

3) I don't think that Whis should surround himself with yes men, but he has. Both in the front office (although I'm not sure how you can call Steve Keim a yes man, do you want the front office to go out and get players the coaching staff doesn't like/want?) and--more importantly--on his own staff. There's too much groupthink in the offensive staff--a bunch of Pittsburgh guys who don't know what to do when the Pittsburgh stuff doesn't work. What was good about Haley is that he wasn't from that background, so he could offer some alternatives when things were going poorly. Even Warner brought a different perspective to the offense and was willing to share it. But Whis doesn't have a counter-balance in his own staff.

Whisenhunt has put yes men in the front office? Example please. Groupthink might be a problem, but even when Parcells has struggled, he isn't exactly looking for dissenting opinions either. In fact, many great NFL coaches are very much strict disciplinarians that run their program and could give a rat's ass about what their assistants or anyone else thinks.

But I'm not really going to argue any of these points because this isn't something I harp on, and I'm not in real disagreement here. I'd love for there to be some turnover on the coaching staff, though I don't think coaching is as much a factor in the failures of this team. Execution is the main failure, I see many wide open wide receivers, I see many blown defensive assignments (Paris is out of position a lot). Those aren't coaching issues, those are talent issues.

I think it's unfair for you to place blame on the front office for not counterbalancing Whis but not demerit him for not having the wisdom to build hos own staff with people who just might disagree with him about something. Can you imagine a coach from our current offensive staff moving upward if they were fired here besides maybe Russ Grimm?

You may be correct here, but I'm offering up an opinion that is lost in all the "WHIS SUCKS, WHIS SUCKS, WHIS SUCKS" circles. Our front office has failed to find ANY decent 3-4 OLB over the past 3-4 years. They failed to bring in good offensive talent. They failed to add a good young ILB. They've failed find a good tight end. They've failed to find a punt returner. I mean for as many draft hits that we've had, we've also let other positions go completely unfilled or underfilled. Even some of our "Stars" have huge holes in their games (Rodgers-Cromartie). This is a flawed team and while we have enough talent to turn it around fairly quickly with a good draft/free agency, I'm NOT optimistic with the front office we have.