Is Kyler Murray the answer at QB for next year and beyond?

[Krangodnzr]

Lamar Jackson was league MVP in 2019 with Hollywood leading the WR corps with 584 yards and some guys named Willie Snead (339 yards) and Seth Roberts (271). Of course, they had Mark Andrews and his 852 yards as well.

Murray has Hollywood, despite injuries on a pace for 697 yards, Wilson on pace for 565, and Moore on pace for 322, plus McBride on pace for 865 yards! Every one higher than the coordinating member of Jackson's receiving corps!

True, the Ravens had the #1 ranked rushing attack that year with 1955 yards from their non-QBs, while the Cardinals' #8 rushing attack (#3 in yards per attempt!) is on pace for "only" 1689 yards from non-QBs. And certainly the Ravens' OL was much better than the Cards' this year.

So while I agree that Hollywood and Wilson are NOT a good top WR pair, they're better than what Jackson had so I don't like using them to excuse Murray's poor play.

That receiving corps was panned as one of the worst in the league. The Ravens also had a great OL and good defense to compensate. Overall team composition does matter in this discussion.

If the Cardinals could've gotten a few stops and Murray doesn't turn the ball over, the Niners game is a very different beast. With the current roster and lack of ability to generate big plays from the two to three WRs on the field, the Cardinals are at a weekly disadvantage however.

 

[daves]

That receiving corps was panned as one of the worst in the league. The Ravens also had a great OL and good defense to compensate. Overall team composition does matter in this discussion.

If the Cardinals could've gotten a few stops and Murray doesn't turn the ball over, the Niners game is a very different beast. With the current roster and lack of ability to generate big plays from the two to three WRs on the field, the Cardinals are at a weekly disadvantage however.

Yes, the Cardinals are at a HUGE weekly disadvantage because of their defense. But I was only responding to the part of your post that I quoted: "Murray isn't playing well, but I can't pretend that he has talent around him. A combo of Hollywood and Wilson just isn't NFL caliber."

The offensive talent surrounding Jackson was better (because of the O-line) than that around Murray, but not world better, and Murray's receiving corps with Hollywood, Wilson, and McBride is no worse than Jackson's with Hollywood, Snead, and Andrews. The Raven's #1 running game was not a world better than the Cardinals' #8 version (#3 per rush).

Yet Jackson's receiving corps was good enough for him to put up a 113 passer rating and 83 QBR, while Murray's passer rating (78) is worse than Dobbs' (81), and Murray's QBR is an equally awful 45. You can't just blame that on Hollywood and Wilson.

 

[DaHilg]

Yes, the Cardinals are at a HUGE weekly disadvantage because of their defense. But I was only responding to the part of your post that I quoted: "Murray isn't playing well, but I can't pretend that he has talent around him. A combo of Hollywood and Wilson just isn't NFL caliber."

The offensive talent surrounding Jackson was better (because of the O-line) than that around Murray, but not world better, and Murray's receiving corps with Hollywood, Wilson, and McBride is no worse than Jackson's with Hollywood, Snead, and Andrews. The Raven's #1 running game was not a world better than the Cardinals' #8 version (#3 per rush).

Yet Jackson's receiving corps was good enough for him to put up a 113 passer rating and 83 QBR, while Murray's passer rating (78) is worse than Dobbs' (81), and Murray's QBR is an equally awful 45. You can't just blame that on Hollywood and Wilson.

Honestly - it’s not even comparable. Lamar isn’t asked to do what Kyler is. The Ravens built an offensive scheme around what Lamar excels at. Lamar would never be able to utilize a top end WR to his full capabilities because Lamar can’t throw the route tree. His career high in yard thrown is just over 3,000 yards and they run the daylights out of the ball for this reason. Lamar didn’t just become more accurate in his throwing of the football from year 1 of 58%, the Ravens decided to make a 100% commitment to design a scheme around the throws that Lamar can make, can excel at. Here’s a couple articles out of endless articles you can find online how they are focused maximizing what Lamar is good at and his inaccuracy. Lamar is phenomenal at the scheme he is - prob the best in the world.. but having a top notch WR group wouldn’t change a thing for him. Having top notch TE’s like Mark Andrew’s are far more important for him to excel in his scheme.

Baltimore Ravens designed offense to maximize Lamar Jackson, not feed belly-aching wide receivers

www.nfl.com

Lamar Jackson has one of NFL's worst accuracy rates for deep passing

Jackson was one of the NFL's least accurate quarterbacks on deep shots last season, completing just 15 of 45 passes.

www.thebaltimorebanner.com

Building around what Lamar “can” do

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/06/25/ravens-are-all-in-lamar-jackson-their-remade-offense-proves-it/

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Yes, the Cardinals are at a HUGE weekly disadvantage because of their defense. But I was only responding to the part of your post that I quoted: "Murray isn't playing well, but I can't pretend that he has talent around him. A combo of Hollywood and Wilson just isn't NFL caliber."

The offensive talent surrounding Jackson was better (because of the O-line) than that around Murray, but not world better, and Murray's receiving corps with Hollywood, Wilson, and McBride is no worse than Jackson's with Hollywood, Snead, and Andrews. The Raven's #1 running game was not a world better than the Cardinals' #8 version (#3 per rush).

Yet Jackson's receiving corps was good enough for him to put up a 113 passer rating and 83 QBR, while Murray's passer rating (78) is worse than Dobbs' (81), and Murray's QBR is an equally awful 45. You can't just blame that on Hollywood and Wilson.

I think you stated as much here. Kyler is QB1 and gets the spotlight but the glaring lack of talent on defense is as equal of an issue right now.

This offense should work. We are running the ball effectively but simply not getting big plays in the passing game off of that like you see with the other good rushing teams. Kyler plays a part in that as do our receivers.

 

[CardNots]

Lamar Jackson was league MVP in 2019 with Hollywood leading the WR corps with 584 yards and some guys named Willie Snead (339 yards) and Seth Roberts (271). Of course, they had Mark Andrews and his 852 yards as well.

Murray has Hollywood, despite injuries on a pace for 697 yards, Wilson on pace for 565, and Moore on pace for 322, plus McBride on pace for 865 yards! Every one higher than the coordinating member of Jackson's receiving corps!

True, the Ravens had the #1 ranked rushing attack that year with 1955 yards from their non-QBs, while the Cardinals' #8 rushing attack (#3 in yards per attempt!) is on pace for "only" 1689 yards from non-QBs. And certainly the Ravens' OL was much better than the Cards' this year.

So while I agree that Hollywood and Wilson are NOT a good top WR pair, they're better than what Jackson had so I don't like using them to excuse Murray's poor play.

Also Conner was down for four games.

 

[ajcardfan]

Honestly - it’s not even comparable. Lamar isn’t asked to do what Kyler is. The Ravens built an offensive scheme around what Lamar excels at. Lamar would never be able to utilize a top end WR to his full capabilities because Lamar can’t throw the route tree. His career high in yard thrown is just over 3,000 yards and they run the daylights out of the ball for this reason. Lamar didn’t just become more accurate in his throwing of the football from year 1 of 58%, the Ravens decided to make a 100% commitment to design a scheme around the throws that Lamar can make, can excel at. Here’s a couple articles out of endless articles you can find online how they are focused maximizing what Lamar is good at and his inaccuracy. Lamar is phenomenal at the scheme he is - prob the best in the world.. but having a top notch WR group wouldn’t change a thing for him. Having top notch TE’s like Mark Andrew’s are far more important for him to excel in his scheme.

Baltimore Ravens designed offense to maximize Lamar Jackson, not feed belly-aching wide receivers

www.nfl.com

Lamar Jackson has one of NFL's worst accuracy rates for deep passing

Jackson was one of the NFL's least accurate quarterbacks on deep shots last season, completing just 15 of 45 passes.

www.thebaltimorebanner.com

Building around what Lamar “can” do

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/06/25/ravens-are-all-in-lamar-jackson-their-remade-offense-proves-it/

Yet, if he throws a couple of bad passes there is still a large crowd of "See, Lamar sucks!" fans, lurking around waiting for moments like those. Just like with Murray.

 

[DaHilg]

Yet, if he throws a couple of bad passes there is still a large crowd of "See, Lamar sucks!" fans, lurking around waiting for moments like those. Just like with Murray.

He doesn’t suck, he’s phenomenal… in the scheme that is created for specifically for him. Just don’t ask him to do anything outside of that scheme and he will fail…. Just as he has done against literally every good defense in the playoffs. They haven’t been losing in the playoffs for defense but for offensive production. Everyone in the playoffs begs him to beat him with his arm. I loved the Titans scheme in the playoffs I believe it was 2 years ago - basically put in 5 LBs in and said you arent going to beat us throwing downfield. All we care about is you running and your short drag routes, short TE routes.

Completely shut down.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Honestly - it’s not even comparable. Lamar isn’t asked to do what Kyler is. The Ravens built an offensive scheme around what Lamar excels at. Lamar would never be able to utilize a top end WR to his full capabilities because Lamar can’t throw the route tree. His career high in yard thrown is just over 3,000 yards and they run the daylights out of the ball for this reason. Lamar didn’t just become more accurate in his throwing of the football from year 1 of 58%, the Ravens decided to make a 100% commitment to design a scheme around the throws that Lamar can make, can excel at. Here’s a couple articles out of endless articles you can find online how they are focused maximizing what Lamar is good at and his inaccuracy. Lamar is phenomenal at the scheme he is - prob the best in the world.. but having a top notch WR group wouldn’t change a thing for him. Having top notch TE’s like Mark Andrew’s are far more important for him to excel in his scheme.

Baltimore Ravens designed offense to maximize Lamar Jackson, not feed belly-aching wide receivers

www.nfl.com

Lamar Jackson has one of NFL's worst accuracy rates for deep passing

Jackson was one of the NFL's least accurate quarterbacks on deep shots last season, completing just 15 of 45 passes.

www.thebaltimorebanner.com

Building around what Lamar “can” do

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/06/25/ravens-are-all-in-lamar-jackson-their-remade-offense-proves-it/

The Ravens are a really well run organization that gets a lot of their players.

 

[Outerlimits]

I'm taking a ton of hopium that Kyler will be the answer beyond next year. Certainly would be awesome.

However, we have numerous games over a long period of time now where Kyler has been consistently poor to mediocre. He is a 5th year player who has regressed in many aspects compared to his first couple seasons even.

Heck, his accuracy on 20+ yard throws is often surprisingly awful. This used to be a major strength of his. His ability to read a defense seems to have deteriorated as well.

What we currently have is a QB who can occasionally make the highlight videos with his feet. All too often though he is killing drives because of bad decisions. (hello running out of bounds for a loss)

Building a better team around him can certainly help to an extent, but the Cardinals will still be living in the basement in this very tough division if Kyler doesn't revert back to the player he was several years ago.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm taking a ton of hopium that Kyler will be the answer beyond next year. Certainly would be awesome.

However, we have numerous games over a long period of time now where Kyler has been consistently poor to mediocre. He is a 5th year player who has regressed in many aspects compared to his first couple seasons even.

Heck, his accuracy on 20+ yard throws is often surprisingly awful. This used to be a major strength of his. His ability to read a defense seems to have deteriorated as well.

What we currently have is a QB who can occasionally make the highlight videos with his feet. All too often though he is killing drives because of bad decisions. (hello running out of bounds for a loss)

Building a better team around him can certainly help to an extent, but the Cardinals will still be living in the basement in this very tough division if Kyler doesn't revert back to the player he was several years ago.

I'm now in the camp that I think the Cardinals stick with Murray and just accent what he can do well, while building up the rest of the team.

He's had his shots to be "the guy" and there is plenty of evidence that Murray is probably just a mid tier QB.

 

[Chopper0080]

I'm now in the camp that I think the Cardinals stick with Murray and just accent what he can do well, while building up the rest of the team.

He's had his shots to be "the guy" and there is plenty of evidence that Murray is probably just a mid tier QB.

I agree that it is looking like they will stick with Kyler and the idea is to get a couple .500 seasons on the books to ensure Gannon/Monti have job security before they pull the trigger on the next QB.

 

[DaHilg]

I agree that it is looking like they will stick with Kyler and the idea is to get a couple .500 seasons on the books to ensure Gannon/Monti have job security before they pull the trigger on the next QB.

lol, I highly doubt that’s the objective and plan for Gannon/Monti. If so we should fire them now.

 

[Stout]

I'm now in the camp that I think the Cardinals stick with Murray and just accent what he can do well, while building up the rest of the team.

He's had his shots to be "the guy" and there is plenty of evidence that Murray is probably just a mid tier QB.

My reflex is to say he isn't nearly that good but I had to pause to consider. I think Kyler's the very definition of a mid-tier QB. Looking around the league and the dearth of talent there, it's easy to put an inconsistent QB with some tools but the inability to put them together smack dab in the middle of the starting QB list. IF Monti can build well, IF Gannon and co can coach well, and IF Kyler can eek out a top 10 season, maybe we sneak into the playoffs every now and then. It's purgatory, but hopium is better than nothing, I suppose.

 

[Krangodnzr]

My reflex is to say he isn't nearly that good but I had to pause to consider. I think Kyler's the very definition of a mid-tier QB. Looking around the league and the dearth of talent there, it's easy to put an inconsistent QB with some tools but the inability to put them together smack dab in the middle of the starting QB list. IF Monti can build well, IF Gannon and co can coach well, and IF Kyler can eek out a top 10 season, maybe we sneak into the playoffs every now and then. It's purgatory, but hopium is better than nothing, I suppose.

In Murray's defense, I'll also say that right now, I don't think the offensive system and players around him really work with how Murray ideally plays.

He's not really a rhythm QB and a rhythm based approach won't really work with him.

 

[DaHilg]

In Murray's defense, I'll also say that right now, I don't think the offensive system and players around him really work with how Murray ideally plays.

He's not really a rhythm QB and a rhythm based approach won't really work with him.

I agree.. I am just throughly confused why we aren’t rolling him out and using TONS of play action like Hurts. I honestly think he would be a better version of Hurts if utilized in the same capacity (minus the 1 yard QB sneaks).

I don’t know if we are not doing this on purpose to work on his in the pocket rhythm passing knowing this season is going nowhere OR we are once again playing towards a coaches scheme and not a players talent/skillset.

I don’t think we will know the answer to this until next season.

 

[DVontel]

why we aren’t rolling him out and using TONS of play action like Hurts.

I don’t think Hurts plays like that. Hurts has a nasty habit of rolling out even when the pocket is clean. Those plays aren’t being called

 

[DaHilg]

I don’t think Hurts plays like that. Hurts has a nasty habit of rolling out even when the pocket is clean. Those plays aren’t being called

Eagles scheme is heavy RPO based which has him rolling out quite a bit. He is not a drop back pocket QB nor is their scheme by any means. Wildly inaccurate.

 

[SoonerLou]

Yes, the Cardinals are at a HUGE weekly disadvantage because of their defense. But I was only responding to the part of your post that I quoted: "Murray isn't playing well, but I can't pretend that he has talent around him. A combo of Hollywood and Wilson just isn't NFL caliber."

The offensive talent surrounding Jackson was better (because of the O-line) than that around Murray, but not world better, and Murray's receiving corps with Hollywood, Wilson, and McBride is no worse than Jackson's with Hollywood, Snead, and Andrews. The Raven's #1 running game was not a world better than the Cardinals' #8 version (#3 per rush).

Yet Jackson's receiving corps was good enough for him to put up a 113 passer rating and 83 QBR, while Murray's passer rating (78) is worse than Dobbs' (81), and Murray's QBR is an equally awful 45. You can't just blame that on Hollywood and Wilson.

Ehh. This is only if you never watched that Ravens team play. I'd argue Hollywood actually seemed more dynamic back then and Snead was a solid vet.

However, this was more about scheme and execution.

You're comparing 1st time play caller Drew Petzing to Greg Roman who had a very clear plan with Lamar Jackson. They leaned heavy on 2 to 3 TE sets AND a FB, Lamar rushing double figures a game and pistol/read option pass plays that opened up free passing lanes for Lamar to decipher quickly.

The Oline constantly mauled teams into getting 3rd and shorts or first downs. Its like comparing the efficiency of those Nebraska teams in the 90s. It worked really well for a year with Roman bringing his 49ers experience with Kaep to Lamar.


I love Lamar as he has constantly improved his pocket movement though.

 

[SoonerLou]

Knowing we are striking distance of MHJ makes it easier. However, as I've said before. Kyler Murray has close to a 100 passer rating with Deandre Hopkins on the field the last two years. I still think biting the bullet, forcing him to play and building more of Kyler's confidence and confidence organization/fans in Kyler would have went a long way.

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So it comes down to whether we'd rather feel less sure about the QB spot and get MHJ? Or feel more sure about the QB spot and we get someone like Nabers. Idk. I hope it works out with MHJ and Kyler proves to be the guy. However, being overly positive about QB going into next year just isnt there as it would have been. I'll say it again there was nothing done in the offseason about making sure we build optimism from the QB spot. Establish confidence and just feel good about it. Its all about 2024(maybe 2025?).

Just imagine if Zach Ertz never got hurt and the overall feeling of the offense. No McBride emergence and it'll be rough.

Lets hope MHJ is truly generational where if we have to get another QB it'll work out in time.

 

[daves]

Ehh. This is only if you never watched that Ravens team play. I'd argue Hollywood actually seemed more dynamic back then and Snead was a solid vet.

However, this was more about scheme and execution.

You're comparing 1st time play caller Drew Petzing to Greg Roman who had a very clear plan with Lamar Jackson. They leaned heavy on 2 to 3 TE sets AND a FB, Lamar rushing double figures a game and pistol/read option pass plays that opened up free passing lanes for Lamar to decipher quickly.

The Oline constantly mauled teams into getting 3rd and shorts or first downs. Its like comparing the efficiency of those Nebraska teams in the 90s. It worked really well for a year with Roman bringing his 49ers experience with Kaep to Lamar.


I love Lamar as he has constantly improved his pocket movement though.

Maybe you've described the offense Murray needs to be successful in the NFL.

People here keep bashing Kingsbury, but Murray improved every year in that "gimmick" offense, reaching top 10 in QBR and passer rating in 2021, before everything imploded. Since then, he's been bottom 5.

 

[DVontel]

Eagles scheme is heavy RPO based which has him rolling out quite a bit. He is not a drop back pocket QB nor is their scheme by any means. Wildly inaccurate.

I also watch a lot of Eagles games & damn near every time he drops back, he rolls to right even when it’s not called. Their scheme is basically 5 plays so it’s not like it’s complexed.

 

[DVontel]

Knowing we are striking distance of MHJ makes it easier. However, as I've said before. Kyler Murray has close to a 100 passer rating with Deandre Hopkins on the field the last two years. I still think biting the bullet, forcing him to play and building more of Kyler's confidence and confidence organization/fans in Kyler would have went a long way.

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So it comes down to whether we'd rather feel less sure about the QB spot and get MHJ? Or feel more sure about the QB spot and we get someone like Nabers. Idk. I hope it works out with MHJ and Kyler proves to be the guy. However, being overly positive about QB going into next year just isnt there as it would have been. I'll say it again there was nothing done in the offseason about making sure we build optimism from the QB spot. Establish confidence and just feel good about it. Its all about 2024(maybe 2025?).

Just imagine if Zach Ertz never got hurt and the overall feeling of the offense. No McBride emergence and it'll be rough.

Lets hope MHJ is truly generational where if we have to get another QB it'll work out in time.

One positive thing I can take out of this is that keeping Nuk probably would’ve prevented us being out of the MHJ zone cause I’m positive we would’ve had another win or two with Nuk.

 

[DaHilg]

I also watch a lot of Eagles games & damn near every time he drops back, he rolls to right even when it’s not called. Their scheme is basically 5 plays so it’s not like it’s complexed.

For a reason.. he can only make limited throws, lucky he has one of the best contested catchers in the league (if not THE best in AJ)… most would be shocked in the amount of 55% and less completion games he’s had thus far in his career. Thus like Lamar, Philly was smart to create a tailored scheme for Hurts.

 

[kerouac9]

Knowing we are striking distance of MHJ makes it easier. However, as I've said before. Kyler Murray has close to a 100 passer rating with Deandre Hopkins on the field the last two years. I still think biting the bullet, forcing him to play and building more of Kyler's confidence and confidence organization/fans in Kyler would have went a long way.

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So it comes down to whether we'd rather feel less sure about the QB spot and get MHJ? Or feel more sure about the QB spot and we get someone like Nabers. Idk. I hope it works out with MHJ and Kyler proves to be the guy. However, being overly positive about QB going into next year just isnt there as it would have been. I'll say it again there was nothing done in the offseason about making sure we build optimism from the QB spot. Establish confidence and just feel good about it. Its all about 2024(maybe 2025?).

Just imagine if Zach Ertz never got hurt and the overall feeling of the offense. No McBride emergence and it'll be rough.

Lets hope MHJ is truly generational where if we have to get another QB it'll work out in time.

Yeah. I'm fine with moving on from Nuk if you're trying to establish a culture of accountability and remove some easy buttons from the offense to force growth from Kyler. We cleared out a big salary cap number in 2024 either way.

There are reasonable football reasons to move on from Nuk that have nothing to do with tanking. But bluffing like you're going to hold on to him until his value is tanked made no sense at the time or today. Rookie mistake from third-choice GM. Hope he learns from it.

 

[TheCardFan]

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