Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[kerouac9]

The "physical tools" have always been overblown with Kyler. His arm strength has not shown to be special. His size isn't special. His accuracy is too inconsistent to be special. His speed is special for sure, but he uses it so rarely that it doesn't take over games.

He is what he is. I believe we have seen the best of what Kyler can offer at the NFL level. I agree with you that I am happy to be playing competitive games in Dec.

I’m also happy to be playing competitive games in December. But Kyler’s arm and release are elite. He’s just not showing it right now because he doesn’t vibe with his options, sadly. MHJ didn’t even make eye contact with him after his TD. Can’t throw a TD to Trey. It’s just weird.

Kyler isnt beating the Trae Young of the NFL allegations until he starts winning. Bottom line.
(could make the case #s wise Trae is much more productive at his sport)

This is such a savage takedown i don’t even know what to say.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I’m also happy to be playing competitive games in December. But Kyler’s arm and release are elite. He’s just not showing it right now because he doesn’t vibe with his options, sadly. MHJ didn’t even make eye contact with him after his TD.

Definitely noticed that. But I’m putting that on Marv who looks like he plays with a “my ish don’t stink” attitude.

 

[Stout]

K1 is one of the middling QBs in football playing for one of the worst franchises in football.

Fire Petzing

FTFY

 

[BritCard]

Don’t kick FGs on the road against good teams.

Say it with me.

Don’t kick FGs on the road against good teams.

Literally everyone kicks FG's on the road against good teams.

Only dumb teams go for it on 4th and 6+ against top 3 defenses. Those kind of plays are extremely low odds of success, and when they inevitably fail they give the opposing team a huge boost.

On the last one that was 4th and 4 there is an argument to be had. Personally I think it was the right call because it forces then to play for the TD, a strategy that would and should have paid off when we had them in 4th and 7. If the defense doesn't allow that conversion it's game over and we all say the FG was the right call.

All those decisions were the right decisions because ultimately they put us in position to win the game, first with a 4th and 7 the defense should not have allowed, and then with the ball in the offenses hands with a minute and a half to go.

 

[BritCard]

Also I was wrong earlier . Kyler is actually #1 in the league in that stat.

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If you need pointing out again how worthless QBR is, then here is another example.

 

[Russ Smith]

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the fumble, the run that should have gone out of bounds but didn’t, I had my finger on the tv power button ready to push it before Kyler even threw that last ball. Had no faith in him, he was in full panic mode.

The 4th down one wasn't a good throw but if you see the replays of it, admittedly I don't have the all 22 or whatever it's called, there's NOBODY even remotely open. I don't think he was trying to throw a jump ball to MHJ I think he was trying to throw it in front of him assuming Marv would fight back for the ball. But the CB had the inside position and Marv reached for the ball he wasn't coming back. Marv probably thought Kyler was going to put air under it and make it a jump ball and maybe he should have but I think his thought was obvious, 4th and 10 I have to throw it.

Hopefully this screenshot works any suggestion Kyler should have run makes no sense he got hit just after he threw it, the only remote chance he had to run was step up and left but as the screencapture shows that wasn't going to work either

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[Red on White]

I would have loved to have played American football. Came to the sport late as a fan but it's different I think having never played or coached, even at junior levels, or grown up with the game. That innate understanding is not there even though I love watching & learning about the game now.

Anyway... am seeking some technical expertise re the Murray/Marvin "not on the same page" supposed teething problems that are still simmering away months into the season.

The timing for both the QB and the receiver would have to slightly fluid, right? The pesky opposition don't always do what they're supposed to.

Kyler for instance might have to release the ball a fraction faster than intended if a rusher beats his man and is bearing down. But does Kyler feel that? Is he aware that the receiver might not quite be ready, may not have quite turned their head - unaware that Kyler is being hurried.

So Kyler needs to take a fraction off the throw, bit more air, wider, whatever. Compensate for the quick release. Give the receiver a chance to make the play.

I've seen other QBs take a hit even so that they can throw at the last possible split second, to give the WR the best chance to be where they need to be.

Similarly if Kyler gets in a bit of a tangle in the pocket. Takes him a fraction longer than anticipated to get clear of the pressure and find the passing lane. The window closing fast so the throw needs to be a BULLET to get there. Adjustment as required.

Likewise it might take the WR a fraction more time to get clear of his man than intended - they get in a tangle or there's a bit of a hold. Or the opposite - they slip him with a step earlier than expected and are open but hurry up. Does Kyler have a good feel for when the WR needs a split second longer or when he needs the ball NOW?

So the QB can speed up or slow down the timing as needed. Does Kyler have that feel? That touch?

All of the above is steered Kyler's way. But the same needs to apply to the WR too. He needs to be aware of the variables the QB might be dealing with. Fitz never seemed surprised that a throw was upon him. I'm sure it wasn't because every throw to him was impeccably timed. He was ready. Born ready. I know it's probably unfair to compare a rookie, however talented, to a future HoFer but MHJ seems to be surprised a bit too often.

I guess what's frustrating about the Kyler/MHJ connection is that there doesn't seem to have been a lot of progress over the season. There are still miscues as though it's a preseason cobwebs game.
They're still having some great moments but a bunch of misses alongside.
And it's also frustrating because it feels like as a duo they could be incredible

 

[SoonerLou]

The 4th down one wasn't a good throw but if you see the replays of it, admittedly I don't have the all 22 or whatever it's called, there's NOBODY even remotely open. I don't think he was trying to throw a jump ball to MHJ I think he was trying to throw it in front of him assuming Marv would fight back for the ball. But the CB had the inside position and Marv reached for the ball he wasn't coming back. Marv probably thought Kyler was going to put air under it and make it a jump ball and maybe he should have but I think his thought was obvious, 4th and 10 I have to throw it.

Hopefully this screenshot works any suggestion Kyler should have run makes no sense he got hit just after he threw it, the only remote chance he had to run was step up and left but as the screencapture shows that wasn't going to work either

You must be registered for see images attach

I see lots of field to run.

 

[Russ Smith]

I see lots of field to run.

Where? You're looking at a frozen screen shot he's about to get hit. He would have had to step up and left to get out there's 2 rushers directly in front of him so stepping up the middle wasn't there. Maybe he gets out left but there's no clear lane they had a guy to his left too.

The mistake was the run on 3rd down he could have gotten more yards on that one but again after watching the replay that should have been a penalty on 91 anyways he hit Kyler in the head.

The first INT was horrible, gave them 3 points and robbed us of the chance to pin them with a punt. The grounding was a terrible play call but a bad decision by Kyler too and frankly he should have probably audibled out of it. The fumble was a bad play too he has to feel the pressure and step up, I thought Paris did well to push his man past Kyler but Kyler has to step up there to avoid the strip.

But I don't really fault him on the 4th down play the most open guy on the field is Zay and he's got like one step but Kyler would have had to throw there and hope for a penalty it was going to be an exceptionally difficult play to complete.

 

[DVontel]

Why bother? 602 is the worse type of fan there is

You are right there with him.

At least with @Stout @BritCard @Cheesebeef @kerouac9 @Chopper0080 @Brian in Mesa, and others I’m missing, they rightfully criticize Kyler when he absolutely deserves it AND give him praise when he absolutely deserves it. They don’t go into hiding when he’s playing good ball & only to pop up when he’s playing bad football. That is so cowardly of you to consistently do. Kudos to them for being fair & consistent.

 

[123]

K1 is Jamesis Winston without the height, personality or leadership.

Makes some fun plays happen but will more often than not blow the game.

 

[DVontel]

K1 is Jamesis Winston without the height, personality or leadership.

Makes some fun plays happen but will more often than not blow the game.

Didn’t realize Kyler was a sex-pest/rapist.

 

[kerouac9]

K1 is Jamesis Winston without the height, personality or leadership.

Makes some fun plays happen but will more often than not blow the game.

This is not fair.

 

[602 Native]

K1 is Jamesis Winston without the height, personality or leadership.

Makes some fun plays happen but will more often than not blow the game.

The Never Murray’s always come through.

Total Delusion

 

[Crimson Warrior]

The one where kyler threw it right to the defender? He didn’t even put enough air on it to give Harrison a chance at it. That play is on kyler, not Harrison.

I know. I was just saying..

Let's just move on to next week, which will be a important referendum on K1's ability to lead this team to an NFC conference championship.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I would have loved to have played American football. Came to the sport late as a fan but it's different I think having never played or coached, even at junior levels, or grown up with the game. That innate understanding is not there even though I love watching & learning about the game now.

Anyway... am seeking some technical expertise re the Murray/Marvin "not on the same page" supposed teething problems that are still simmering away months into the season.

The timing for both the QB and the receiver would have to slightly fluid, right? The pesky opposition don't always do what they're supposed to.

Kyler for instance might have to release the ball a fraction faster than intended if a rusher beats his man and is bearing down. But does Kyler feel that? Is he aware that the receiver might not quite be ready, may not have quite turned their head - unaware that Kyler is being hurried.

So Kyler needs to take a fraction off the throw, bit more air, wider, whatever. Compensate for the quick release. Give the receiver a chance to make the play.

I've seen other QBs take a hit even so that they can throw at the last possible split second, to give the WR the best chance to be where they need to be.

Similarly if Kyler gets in a bit of a tangle in the pocket. Takes him a fraction longer than anticipated to get clear of the pressure and find the passing lane. The window closing fast so the throw needs to be a BULLET to get there. Adjustment as required.

Likewise it might take the WR a fraction more time to get clear of his man than intended - they get in a tangle or there's a bit of a hold. Or the opposite - they slip him with a step earlier than expected and are open but hurry up. Does Kyler have a good feel for when the WR needs a split second longer or when he needs the ball NOW?

So the QB can speed up or slow down the timing as needed. Does Kyler have that feel? That touch?

All of the above is steered Kyler's way. But the same needs to apply to the WR too. He needs to be aware of the variables the QB might be dealing with. Fitz never seemed surprised that a throw was upon him. I'm sure it wasn't because every throw to him was impeccably timed. He was ready. Born ready. I know it's probably unfair to compare a rookie, however talented, to a future HoFer but MHJ seems to be surprised a bit too often.

I guess what's frustrating about the Kyler/MHJ connection is that there doesn't seem to have been a lot of progress over the season. There are still miscues as though it's a preseason cobwebs game.
They're still having some great moments but a bunch of misses alongside.
And it's also frustrating because it feels like as a duo they could be incredible

My man, this is over my pay grade to answer. It's a thoughtful post. Hopefully some one can fully help with it.

 

[SoonerLou]

The good thing is the next 5 (especially the next 3) will tell us a lot about Kyler going forward.

Next 3 games are games top 10 to 12 QBs should win.

Sweeping the Rams/49ers is tough no matter how down they are. If the defense keeps playing like they're playing then he should get one or both done as well.

The division is still there for him to take. Better to take the humbling losses earlier than at the very end.


I said the same thing in 2020 though.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The good thing is the next 5 (especially the next 3) will tell us a lot about Kyler going forward.

Next 3 games are games top 10 to 12 QBs should win.

Sweeping the Rams/49ers is tough no matter how down they are. If the defense keeps playing like they're playing then he should get one or both done as well.

The division is still there for him to take. Better to take the humbling losses earlier than at the very end.


I said the same thing in 2020 though.

Agreed. As I said in the game thread, this team can flip the momentum right back into their direction with a win next week. We win next week and we are probably the favorite to win the division.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I know. I was just saying..

Let's just move on to next week, which will be a important referendum on K1's ability to lead this team to an NFC conference championship.

I’m good with it. We almost won a game I didn’t think we would. It’s a tough pill to swallow, but with a day behind me I’m more impressed with where this team is at present from a growth perspective.

 

[602 Native]

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[urs]

Weird that you credit kyler with this but don’t give petzig any credit for the same.

Petz called the awful plays in the RZ. Thanks for playing, kiddo.

 

[Chopper0080]

Kyler isnt beating the Trae Young of the NFL allegations until he starts winning. Bottom line.
(could make the case #s wise Trae is much more productive at his sport)

That is a really good comp.

 

[Chopper0080]

I’m also happy to be playing competitive games in December. But Kyler’s arm and release are elite. He’s just not showing it right now because he doesn’t vibe with his options, sadly. MHJ didn’t even make eye contact with him after his TD. Can’t throw a TD to Trey. It’s just weird.


This is such a savage takedown i don’t even know what to say.

I haven't seen the elite arm since 2001. Until i do, it doesn't exist.

 

[SoonerLou]

I haven't seen the elite arm since 2001. Until i do, it doesn't exist.

We see it in flashes, but not consistently.

His real superpower was he was a top 3 deep ball passer in the league. It just hasn't been there since Kirk left. Rookie year to year 3 Kyler release was crazy fast as well.

However, yes overall when was the last time we've seen him just throw a fastball between multiple defenders. I've seen touch and layered throws. Not necessarily power.

Chris Simms pointed out in the offseason that Kyler's throwing motion tends to get long every now and then. Messes with his accuracy and zip.

 

[602 Native]

We see it in flashes, but not consistently.

His real superpower was he was a top 3 deep ball passer in the league. It just hasn't been there since Kirk left. Rookie year to year 3 Kyler release was crazy fast as well.

However, yes overall when was the last time we've seen him just throw a fastball between multiple defenders. I've seen touch and layered throws. Not necessarily power.

Chris Simms pointed out in the offseason that Kyler's throwing motion tends to get long every now and then. Messes with his accuracy and zip.

Plenty of fastballs have been thrown to McBride, Wilson, and even yesterday to MHJ.

Who are we throwing deep passes to?

Our guys barely get separation from anyone.