Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[602 Native]

Kyler is not a good fit in the McVay/KOC scheme so he would not be the MVP.

This is the greatest conjecture ever. You have no idea about this on any level.

 

[602 Native]

2024 Darnold: 36 total TDs
2020 Kyler: 37 total TDs

Is anyone prepared to argue that the 2020 CARDS offence was more talented than the 2024 Vikes?

This will never get answered

 

[Chopper0080]

Who would you say s better?

Philly
Detroit
Baltimore w/ Flowers

Cincy is better
SF healthy is better

Miami is close. Minnesota has the better offensive tackles.
Jets are close.

 

[Chopper0080]

This is the greatest conjecture ever. You have no idea about this on any level.

I mean...the McVay / KOC offense is based on getting the ball out quickly and taking shots down the field. There isn't a huge check down element to it. A lot of layered route concepts to the middle of the field. Not a ton of moving out of the pocket which makes it different than the Shanahan system. None of that is really Kyler's strong suit.

McVay ditched Goff for Stafford because Goff wasn't taking enough shot throws. Kyler doesn't really do that.

KOC asks Darnold to stand in the pocket and take shots to deliver the ball. Kyler isn't built to do that.

 

[82CardsGrad]

An interesting thought experiment might be... How many games did we lose this season where a very credible argument could be made that we legitimately should've won?
Our first 2 losses were against the Bills and then the Lions. Two extremely good teams that, as we stand here today could likely be playing in the Super Bowl. But we lost both of those games by a single TD. Our 3rd loss was the blow-out to the Commanders, a team led by a rookie QB.
Our 4th loss was another blow out, this time to the Packers.
We go on to lose to the Seahawks in a low-scoring, 10-point loss... The Vikings in a game we 100% should've won. The Hawks again, this time in a blow out at home. The Panthers in a game with so much riding on the outcome, yet we suffer the most deflating loss of the season. Finally, with nothing to play for we lose to the Rams in a game many would say we had a tremendous chance to win...

Question: How many other QB's would've found a way to win at least 3 of the games we lost? In other words, if Kyler wasn't our QB, how many other QB's out there would've taken this team to the post season this year? We could never really know of course...but, I think it's safe to say that Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Daniels & Stafford would have our Cards playing in January this season. But, would guys like Goff, Hurts, Stroud, Mayfield, Herbert, Darnold, Love Purdy, Geno Smith and Tua been able to lead this team into the post season this year? Would Caleb Williams, Russ or Bryce Young done more with this team this season than Kyler?

Just trying to further assess where Kyler truly stands in comparison to other QB's...

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Needs to be a separate thread of 602 vs the world.

Except it's not really like that.

 

[Russ Smith]

I mean...I guess.

Obviously the best answer is a better QB with a better roster.

The alternatives are a better roster with the same QB OR the same roster with a better QB. If the player cycle doesn't offer you the opportunity of a better QB, then you just build the roster.

Yeah I don't see why the concept of building a better roster is bad to him? The only "con" to it is if you believe it's going to make it harder for you to draft high enough to get a QB but I'm not into that reason.

 

[Russ Smith]

A quick fact check.

Minnesota does not have the best offensive personnel in football.

Kyler is not a good fit in the McVay/KOC scheme so he would not be the MVP.

The reason Darnold won't get a contract from Minnesota is because JJ McCarthy beat him out for the starting job and will be back from injury.

They're in the top 5 I would argue, Detroit led the league in scoring I think they run the ball better than Minnesota.

There's a lot of reasons I wouldn't want to give Darnold a big contract but one of the most obvious is how outlier of a season this was. Not just from him. said before, Minnesota was 8-1 in games decided by a TD or less this year, that's WAY outside the norm.

This was one of those seasons where virtually everything went right for them so to still get routed in their last 2 games has to really hurt.

 

[football karma]

How many games did we lose this season where a very credible argument could be made that we legitimately should've won?

they were 3-5 in one score / coin flip games. their 8-9 might have been a 9-8

their record represents who they were

 

[602 Native]

Philly
Detroit
Baltimore w/ Flowers

Cincy is better
SF healthy is better

Miami is close. Minnesota has the better offensive tackles.
Jets are close.

Jefferson, Addison, Jones, and Hockenson
Philly maybe
Detroit not even close

Baltimore (this is funny because people were just saying this group is not elite) but is definitely arguable

Cincy not close
SF they are never healthy so no

Miami no (Waddle really has regressed and Hill is being a turd)
Jets LOL

 

[Russ Smith]

Jefferson, Addison, Jones, and Hockenson
Philly maybe
Detroit not even close

Baltimore (this is funny because people were just saying this group is not elite) but is definitely arguable

Cincy not close
SF they are never healthy so no

Miami no (Waddle really has regressed and Hill is being a turd)
Jets LOL

I would say Philly. Best OL in the league, if not the best I don't know who's better. 2000 yard rb, two WR's that are WR1 good. 2 good TE's. Said it the other day put Josh Allen on Philly they're probably unbeaten.

I'm going to predict if Philly doesn't win the SB this year we start to see fans clamoring for a new QB

 

[Brian in Mesa]

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[Russ Smith]

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That makes no sense, we didn't have a first round draft pick QB that beat out Kyler for the job before getting hurt about to return.

If they didn't have McCarthy, they'd give Darnold a huge contract. They do, so they won't.

 

[GeorgiaCard88]

An interesting thought experiment might be... How many games did we lose this season where a very credible argument could be made that we legitimately should've won?
Our first 2 losses were against the Bills and then the Lions. Two extremely good teams that, as we stand here today could likely be playing in the Super Bowl. But we lost both of those games by a single TD. Our 3rd loss was the blow-out to the Commanders, a team led by a rookie QB.
Our 4th loss was another blow out, this time to the Packers.
We go on to lose to the Seahawks in a low-scoring, 10-point loss... The Vikings in a game we 100% should've won. The Hawks again, this time in a blow out at home. The Panthers in a game with so much riding on the outcome, yet we suffer the most deflating loss of the season. Finally, with nothing to play for we lose to the Rams in a game many would say we had a tremendous chance to win...

Question: How many other QB's would've found a way to win at least 3 of the games we lost? In other words, if Kyler wasn't our QB, how many other QB's out there would've taken this team to the post season this year? We could never really know of course...but, I think it's safe to say that Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Daniels & Stafford would have our Cards playing in January this season. But, would guys like Goff, Hurts, Stroud, Mayfield, Herbert, Darnold, Love Purdy, Geno Smith and Tua been able to lead this team into the post season this year? Would Caleb Williams, Russ or Bryce Young done more with this team this season than Kyler?

Just trying to further assess where Kyler truly stands in comparison to other QB's...

I’d say everyone in that first tier, everyone in that second tier (except maybe geno ironically considering Kyler got beat by him twice)- so maybe 13-14 of them? I’d argue that bo nix and Prescott (when healthy) could do it too. Probably close to 15-16

 

[TheCardFan]

That makes no sense, we didn't have a first round draft pick QB that beat out Kyler for the job before getting hurt about to return.

If they didn't have McCarthy, they'd give Darnold a huge contract. They do, so they won't.

Makes sense.

They sort of have the formula they want going into next year right now:

JJ McCarthy competing with veteran back-up Daniel Jones.

 

[kerouac9]

veteran back-up Daniel Jones

He's a pending free agent, but he's an interesting name.

 

[602 Native]

He's a pending free agent, but he's an interesting name.

Jones is a good backup for sure. Will he accept a backup roll for 4-5 million?

 

[PDXChris]

Jones is a good backup for sure. Will he accept a backup roll for 4-5 million?

The high paid actual backup this year was Jarrett Stidham at $6 million. Jones probably gets closer to $8 to $10 million because he can start. I couls see a team like the Raiders drafting a QB and signing Jones to back him up

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/broncos-stidham-tied-for-highest-paid-veteran-backup-qb-in-nfl/73-85f14241-49a0-4270-a7a6-826caac8a86b

 

[BirdGangThing]

aside from the eagles all remaining teams are there due to qb play - due to their qbs rising in the moment - and hurts isn't even a choker - hurts just has to not hurt phillys chances and they're tough

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[602 Native]

aside from the eagles all remaining teams are there due to qb play - due to their qbs rising in the moment - and hurts isn't even a choker - hurts just has to not hurt phillys chances and they're tough

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You truly believe all we need is a new QB and we are one of these teams?

 

[BirdGangThing]

You truly believe all we need is a new QB and we are one of these teams?

never said that - if you can't keep up stay in the kyler pool

 

[Chopper0080]

Jefferson, Addison, Jones, and Hockenson
Philly maybe
Detroit not even close

Baltimore (this is funny because people were just saying this group is not elite) but is definitely arguable

Cincy not close
SF they are never healthy so no

Miami no (Waddle really has regressed and Hill is being a turd)
Jets LOL

ASB, LaPorta, Williams, Patrick, Gibbs, and Montgomery laps Jefferson, Addison, Hockenson, Nailor, Jones and Akers before you even get to the offensive line.

Here is where you are just making stuff up. "Cincy not close"

Cincy.

Chase had more yards than Jefferson.
Higgins more yards than Addison.
Gesieki had more yards than Hock.
Chase Brown had 200 yards from scrimmage less than Aaron Jones and started 7 less games.
Iiosivas had more yards than Nailor.

You might argue Minnesota has the better offensive line but Burrow only had 6.86% sack rate vs Darnold's 8.09%. Also, both lines gave up the same amount of sacks.

There is no measurable that supports Minnesota having better OFFENSIVE personnel than Cincy.

 

[602 Native]

never said that - if you can't keep up stay in the kyler pool

So in other words you have not point to that post then because this is a K1 thread.

 

[BritCard]

I think it's actually really hard to find a top 15 QB in the draft. The dropoff between Kyler/Lawrence/Herbert and the next tier feels really steep to me.

I'm not saying it's easy, but teams do it every year.

Rather the hope of improvement than the certainty of mediocrity.

(Also, Herbert is not close to the same tier as Kyler and Lawrence)

 

[602 Native]

ASB, LaPorta, Williams, Patrick, Gibbs, and Montgomery laps Jefferson, Addison, Hockenson, Nailor, Jones and Akers before you even get to the offensive line.

Here is where you are just making stuff up. "Cincy not close"

Cincy.

Chase had more yards than Jefferson.
Higgins more yards than Addison.
Gesieki had more yards than Hock.
Chase Brown had 200 yards from scrimmage less than Aaron Jones and started 7 less games.
Iiosivas had more yards than Nailor.

You might argue Minnesota has the better offensive line but Burrow only had 6.86% sack rate vs Darnold's 8.09%. Also, both lines gave up the same amount of sacks.

There is no measurable that supports Minnesota having better OFFENSIVE personnel than Cincy.

Chase is playing with a great QB.
JJ plays with (Checks notes Darnold who is trash)
You always are in the yards kick. It is quite funny. No mention of TDs when discussing these guys.

The line of Minny is way better than cincy again not arguable.

JJ can play with any QB as seen by Darnold this year and KK prior to that.