Most Depressing News

[Garthshort]

I found Rod Graves' comments that other teams weren't releasing more talented players, very depressing. He(the team) could have signed Wilkenson, Coleman and Molden but he doesn't mention that. Instead he says that the team will be more aggressive (FA) in the next offseason. This year is just getting started and he's already, IMO, writing it off. Very depressing.

 

[CardinalMike]

Originally posted by Garthshort
I found Rod Graves' comments that other teams weren't releasing more talented players, very depressing. He(the team) could have signed Wilkenson, Coleman and Molden but he doesn't mention that.

That's assuming they WANT to play for us. It takes more then Graves holding a stack of money to get players here.

Cardinal Mike!!

 

[Duckjake]

Originally posted by Garthshort
I found Rod Graves' comments that other teams weren't releasing more talented players, very depressing. He(the team) could have signed Wilkenson, Coleman and Molden but he doesn't mention that. Instead he says that the team will be more aggressive (FA) in the next offseason. This year is just getting started and he's already, IMO, writing it off. Very depressing.

And next off season he will be saying they are going to wait until the June 1st cuts.

 

[red desert]

Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by CardinalMike
That's assuming they WANT to play for us. It takes more then Graves holding a stack of money to get players here.

Cardinal Mike!!

No, it doesn't. It just takes the "right" stack of money to get the players here. Like everything else in life, where there's a will there's a way. I absolutely and unequivocally believe that.

 

[JeffGollin]

My math is often faulty, so help me out -

Our total cap figure going into the draft was $60 million and change. Our remaining cap surplus (notwithstanding some incentives for the rooks) is $14.4 million.

This means our spending to improve the team was roughly 20% below what we were allowed to spend.

Talent-wise (until they prove otherwise) it can be argued that the Cardinals are 20% below the league norm.

Surprise, surprise!

Cards were a little "cavalier" about bringing in the guys we needed to make this team a genuine contender. Maybe a championship team or even an average NFL contender can get away with this, but a not a team barely above the cellar.

Where was the sense of urgency?

 

[Stout]

Er, there wasn't any, Jeff...but don't say that to most of the posters here, or you'll have your head ripped off!

No, seriously, I can understand why so many people on here just want to believe in Graves. I really do. Same reason why it took so long for people to admit Jake actually sucked. Because they desperately want SOMETHING, ANYTHING to cling to.

That said, I don't agree with them. I'll comment all the time on Graves, the Good (Blake and company signings), the bad (Losing out in FA on a pass rush, lying about June 1st cuts, not doing anything to improve the team lately, etc) and the ugly (weeell, see the bad, I guess).

 

[Jttsaz]

Originally posted by Garthshort
I found Rod Graves' comments that other teams weren't releasing more talented players, very depressing. He(the team) could have signed Wilkenson, Coleman and Molden but he doesn't mention that. Instead he says that the team will be more aggressive (FA) in the next offseason. This year is just getting started and he's already, IMO, writing it off. Very depressing.

I'm sure coach Mac is real excited about bringing in FA next year when he's coaching in Canada...

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by red desert
No, it doesn't. It just takes the "right" stack of money to get the players here. Like everything else in life, where there's a will there's a way. I absolutely and unequivocally believe that.

You can believe it all you want but CardinalMike is exactly right. Many players have told this team to pound sand and wouldnt make visits here or have used this team as a bargaining chip and nothing more.

You all act high and mighty acting as though you know for a fact that Graves made no effort to bring any of these guys in.

The bottom line: I know about as much facts that Graves tried to bring these guys in as you guys do that he didnt try!

 

[conraddobler]

I am willing to give Graves a pass on this year and this year only on the salray cap surplus due to the fact that most of the savings I believe is planned.

I think the Bidwill's told him we need x amount of $ for the stadium and that is the whole reason we are saving so much cap space.

In that case I think they get to the minimum cap through new deals for our guys and save the money for the stadium. However if this continues past this year then yeah I will be right there screaming about it like some others.

I don't believe for the record it is a good idea particularly but I think that is what in fact is going on. I also believe this was discussed before he took the job.

When you are as far away as we are from being a contender you couldn't pick a better time to save the $ if that is your goal.

They were willing to pay market deals for a couple of guys but they didn't take them. Realistically no one thought big daddy would try as hard as he did for the Lions we couldn't have expected that based on his prior track record.

I think the overall plan is to only get certain players of a certain age and ability and the rest can wait till we are closer to a contender. Pretty much can't argue that in that light we did offer the best money to come here in sufficient amounts to be competitive with our bid they just signed elsewhere for less.

 

[Rats]

Originally posted by conraddobler
I am willing to give Graves a pass on this year and this year only on the salray cap surplus due to the fact that most of the savings I believe is planned.

I think the Bidwill's told him we need x amount of $ for the stadium and that is the whole reason we are saving so much cap space.

In that case I think they get to the minimum cap through new deals for our guys and save the money for the stadium. However if this continues past this year then yeah I will be right there screaming about it like some others.

I don't believe for the record it is a good idea particularly but I think that is what in fact is going on. I also believe this was discussed before he took the job.

When you are as far away as we are from being a contender you couldn't pick a better time to save the $ if that is your goal.

They were willing to pay market deals for a couple of guys but they didn't take them. Realistically no one thought big daddy would try as hard as he did for the Lions we couldn't have expected that based on his prior track record.

I think the overall plan is to only get certain players of a certain age and ability and the rest can wait till we are closer to a contender. Pretty much can't argue that in that light we did offer the best money to come here in sufficient amounts to be competitive with our bid they just signed elsewhere for less.

......Agree totally Conrad...we really only lost one player that we would like to have had. Holliday...or Colvin. IMO...we wouldn't have signed both. The Cards were shooting for a 65mil cap hit saving 10mil a year for the stadium fund. At least that is how I see it.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

In no way am I saying Graves deserves an A+. In his first year he did decent.

I think:
Boldin
Blake
Smith - who at first I didn't like but his going to make Shipp a superstar
Hodgins
Jackson
King

There is a list of really good talent with good attitudes. Yes, I agree he dropped the ball in not signing a proven CB.

Our situation. We got GOBS of $ for next year. I think if we are smart we cut/trade Duane Starks wich is another couple million, and we have some of our overpaid underproductive OL on the block as well.

Graves HAS to become aggressive next year. Unless he is a complete fool (jury is still out on that one) he must see what Okeafor, and Holliday are doing for there respective ball clubs. He hopefully will see what free agency did for most teams, and will with the program.

Peace

 

[Duckjake]

In no way am I saying Graves deserves an A+. In his first year he did decent.

They've only played one game and we shouldn't judge until after they've played at least 4. So far all those players have produced is another Cardinal loss. I've seen too many guys put on Cardinal Red, look great for a few games or one season and then fade away to get too excited this early.

The only people who put on Cardinal Red on Sunday and have consistently performed for the Cards for a long period of time are the die hards in the Parking Lots with BBQ grills and ice chests.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Duckjake
The only people who put on Cardinal Red on Sunday and have consistently performed for the Cards for a long period of time are the die hards in the Parking Lots with BBQ grills and ice chests.

Aeneas Williams
Kwamie Lassiter
Ronald Mckinnon
Roy Green
Neil Lomax
Rob Moore
Frank Sanders

Many more!

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by Shane H
Many players have told this team to pound sand and wouldnt make visits here or have used this team as a bargaining chip and nothing more.

You all act high and mighty acting as though you know for a fact that Graves made no effort to bring any of these guys in.

But the job of a General Manager isn't just to put the most money out there (any of us could do that), it's also to make people believe in your plan and franchise. If Graves can't do that for people that are running around looking for a job two weeks before the beginning of the season, how is he going to be able to do it with players who could go to a Super Bowl contender for similar money?

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Shane H
Aeneas Williams
Kwamie Lassiter
Ronald Mckinnon
Roy Green
Neil Lomax
Rob Moore
Frank Sanders

Many more!

The same Aeneas Williams who was telling the papers that the Cards were too cheap to give free footballs to kids looking for autographs, but the Rams weren't?

The same Rob Moore who told the Fox Sports Mountain that he could have played his last season in Arizona, but didn't want to so he could get out of his contract?

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by kerouac9
But the job of a General Manager isn't just to put the most money out there (any of us could do that), it's also to make people believe in your plan and franchise. If Graves can't do that for people that are running around looking for a job two weeks before the beginning of the season, how is he going to be able to do it with players who could go to a Super Bowl contender for similar money?

Im not denying the fact that he has failed in that effort with some players. But the effort was still there none the less!

I cant expect Graves to erase the stigma that has been sent to players around this league for decades in only one off-season! But what he has done shows a start. Im also not going to crucify him not knowing all of the facts something we'll possibly never know!

 

[red desert]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by Shane H
The bottom line: I know about as much facts that Graves tried to bring these guys in as you guys do that he didnt try!



[/B]

Exactly. Now who's acting high and mighty?

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by red desert
Exactly. Now who's acting high and mighty?

Not I! I said I know no more than you!

But you dont see me outwardly slamming Graves or outwardly praising him either like many of you who do with little to no info on what really goes on :roll:

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by Shane H
Im not denying the fact that he has failed in that effort with some players. But the effort was still there none the less!

How do you know that it was there?

My point: does Graves' unsuccessful effort provide the team with any extra points or wins this season? What about some sort of compensatory pick in the 2004 draft? No? Then his effort doesn't mean anything. In business, people are judged on results, not effort. Regardless of how hard Chris Dishman tries out there, if we can't run to his side, he's a bad football player. No matter how hard Graves tries to recruit free agent talent to Arizona, if he fails, he's a bad general manager.

Why is this so hard for some people to accept?

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by kerouac9
How do you know that it was there?

My point: does Graves' unsuccessful effort provide the team with any extra points or wins this season? What about some sort of compensatory pick in the 2004 draft? No? Then his effort doesn't mean anything. In business, people are judged on results, not effort. Regardless of how hard Chris Dishman tries out there, if we can't run to his side, he's a bad football player. No matter how hard Graves tries to recruit free agent talent to Arizona, if he fails, he's a bad general manager.

Why is this so hard for some people to accept?

Thats 100% your opinion, yet you are trying to pass that position off as fact!

I know the effort was there because it was publicly stated that he offered our two prime FA targets more money then any other team. In fact a 10 million dollar signing bonus to Colvin compared to the 7 million that he accepted from the pats. TO me thats effort. You can only do so much. If a person doesnt want to come here theres nothing you can do to change his mind.

Thats like saying that because you asked 10 girls out before one finally said yes then you are horrible with women. That just plain might not be true!

Yes his effort does mean something! It means an upgraded FS, a much deeper RB corps, It measn we got what looks like is going to be two very good 1st round picks instead of one, it means we have probably the best FB in football, it means we have a deeper LB corps, it means we have a decent QB for the first time in years etc...... Thats all part of the effort yet thing you choose to ignore.

 

[kerouac9]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by Shane H
Thats 100% your opinion, yet you are trying to pass that position off as fact!

I know the effort was there because it was publicly stated that he offered our two prime FA targets more money then any other team. In fact a 10 million dollar signing bonus to Colvin compared to the 7 million that he accepted from the pats. TO me thats effort. You can only do so much. If a person doesnt want to come here theres nothing you can do to change his mind.

Thats like saying that because you asked 10 girls out before one finally said yes then you are horrible with women. That just plain might not be true!

Yes his effort does mean something! It means an upgraded FS, a much deeper RB corps, It measn we got what looks like is going to be two very good 1st round picks instead of one, it means we have probably the best FB in football, it means we have a deeper LB corps, it means we have a decent QB for the first time in years etc...... Thats all part of the effort yet thing you choose to ignore.

I thought we just agreed that being a successful GM has more to do with throwing money at a player. If that's your definition of effort, then I guess we have philosophical differences.

As for your analogy, if you are a rich, rich man, that can give a girl all the security in the world, but you can't convince her that you're a good person that she should invest in, and you can't get any of the hot girls (Colvin, Holliday) to go out with you, and so you have to settle for wallflowers (Hodgins [admit it, people: there are five or seven fullbacks as good as Hodgins, or better], D. Jackson), then you pretty much are bad with women. Especially when you end up giving a three-carat engagement ring to the least popular girl in school (E. Smith).

If you fail in your primary mission, but succeed in your secondary missions, you still failed the primary mission. Graves said that his primary mission was to help shore up the pass rush. How many sacks did we have on Sunday? Zero. How many QB pressures did we have on Sunday? Maybe one? What about the firming up the "belly of this team," another states Graves goal? We had one injury on the offensive line on Sunday, and who was in? Oh, Chris Dishman, the same guy that was starting at the end of last season, to massive failure. The opposing quarterback last week was the NFL Player of the Week! What does that say about the way he helped our defense in the offseason?

 

[Shane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by kerouac9
I thought we just agreed that being a successful GM has more to do with throwing money at a player. If that's your definition of effort, then I guess we have philosophical differences.

As for your analogy, if you are a rich, rich man, that can give a girl all the security in the world, but you can't convince her that you're a good person that she should invest in, and you can't get any of the hot girls (Colvin, Holliday) to go out with you, and so you have to settle for wallflowers (Hodgins [admit it, people: there are five or seven fullbacks as good as Hodgins, or better], D. Jackson), then you pretty much are bad with women. Especially when you end up giving a three-carat engagement ring to the least popular girl in school (E. Smith).

If you fail in your primary mission, but succeed in your secondary missions, you still failed the primary mission. Graves said that his primary mission was to help shore up the pass rush. How many sacks did we have on Sunday? Zero. How many QB pressures did we have on Sunday? Maybe one? What about the firming up the "belly of this team," another states Graves goal? We had one injury on the offensive line on Sunday, and who was in? Oh, Chris Dishman, the same guy that was starting at the end of last season, to massive failure. The opposing quarterback last week was the NFL Player of the Week! What does that say about the way he helped our defense in the offseason?

First and foremost I agree that he failed in some of his mission thats why he does not get a free pass with me. But while he may not have succeeded in his primary goal doesnt mean he failed as whole like you say. He still completed and succeeded in many of his secondary goals. While not the big prize we were looking for they are still good moves none the less. I think you know that as well but choose not to acknowledge it for some reason?

I would like to see you name 7 FBs as good or better than Hodgins. Also tell me ehy you think there better if you dont mind or care to take the time?

Having no sacks against the QB who is the least likely to be sacked in the NFL is no surprise. Heck the most sacked QB in the league last year was sacked zero times by the Dolphins in week 1 who have one of the most fierce pass rushes in all of football. Do you think thats making the fish panic? I highly doubt it!

Oh and you might want to rewatch the game Pace was in Harringtons face three times all on his own that I counted, dunno where your coming up with once as a team?

 

[Cheesebeef]

and round and round we go!

 

[AndyO]

Maybe I'm a blind optimist, but I still have faith that this club will turn out to be a good, competitive team in the next few weeks. I won't give Graves an A, but he has improved the squad over last season. The core for a quick turn around was not here, and overpaying some marginal free agents would seem to put us in the same mediocre cycle we've been in for years.

 

[HookemCards]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Most Depressing News

Originally posted by kerouac9
I thought we just agreed that being a successful GM has more to do with throwing money at a player. If that's your definition of effort, then I guess we have philosophical differences.

As for your analogy, if you are a rich, rich man, that can give a girl all the security in the world, but you can't convince her that you're a good person that she should invest in, and you can't get any of the hot girls (Colvin, Holliday) to go out with you, and so you have to settle for wallflowers (Hodgins [admit it, people: there are five or seven fullbacks as good as Hodgins, or better], D. Jackson), then you pretty much are bad with women. Especially when you end up giving a three-carat engagement ring to the least popular girl in school (E. Smith).

Let me see if I can maybe help with what Shane is trying to say. Using the same analogy with a bit of a caveat: You are a rich, rich man only rumor has it you have herpes. You may or may not have it, but the perception from women is that you do. I think the better women (Colvin, Holliday) are going to think twice about marrying (signing a long term deal) when there is another man almost as rich w/o herpes offering too. Graves has to deal with all the stuff previous GM's have done here, and lets face it thats a pretty big hurdle. So whats he doing, starting with the fairly attractive women (Hodgins, Blake, Smith, Darling) in hopes to get the word out to the other women (Next years Colvin, Hollidays) that he doesn't indeed have herpes.

Hope I was helpful.