Most Depressing News

[nidan]

You are wasting your breath Renz, there are a few like Redstorm and Cardiac that have their answer already.

The only thing left is to hunt for things to spin into a reason for the answer. They have a closed mind on the subject.

And the anwser is "The Bidwill's are cheap"

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by nidan
How about an alternative view.

The public as a whole is cheap and because the Cardinals were not a pernial winner that couldn't get a new stadium.

When they left, the town realized they had lost their NFL francise and paid huge $$ to get another losing team. But surprise, when given lots of $$ the Rams statred improving. When they arrived in in SL they sucked.

Even the Felons who are worshiped in Dallas are having trouble getting a new stadium.

So don't put up that BS that says SL wouldn't give the Cardinals a new stadium, when in reality getting a new stadium for ANY team is fraught with rancor and public arguments.

However, I realize that suimplifing the story makes it easier to slam the Cards.

Nidan, you and I agree on most things most of the time. I have been a Cards fan for 30+ years and have witnessed what he does. He is a nice man with good morals. He just is not a good owner and makes horrible decisions over and over again. I don't think he doesn't want to win but doesn't know how to. I give Graves a great deal of credit for helping Mr. B see the light. Problem is the light has to be brighter than the Sun to get throught to him.

Of Course the fans in St. Louis were far more willing to pony up money for another team, any team. You see every other team in the league has better ownership except for maybe the Bengals. The people of St Louis were willing to gamble on losing a NFL franchise instead of subsudising Bidwill's team.

I know this because I lived there. I know this because if you want to see some of the most supportive fans in the world they live in that area. You ever notice how the fans root for their players and give them a true feeling of being part of the city. McGuire, Edmonds, Mel Grey, Jim Hart and on and on and on.

Both McGuire and Edmonds have stated they stay with the Cards because of the organization and the FANS. It is called baseball heaven by most players in the league. Scott Rolen has fallen in love with the town and couldn't wait to get out of Philly.

If they see you're and idiot then they do everything they can to get rid of you. Bidwill, Templeton (BB shortstop) and Galaraga sp (1st baseman). The fans reward an honest effort and appreciate those who try hard. They have a great deal of patience and once part of the family it's almost impossible to be disowned. Bidwill managed this with realitive ease. Even when he had a winning team in this town they could tell he wasn't doing everrthing he could to keep progressing.

Ask Don Coryll about his opinion of Bidwill. Ask the Chargers their opinion of Coryll. How Bidwill just locked him out of the office one day and that was his method of firing Coryll. The only man to have taken the Cards to the playoffs in years. The man who revolutionized the passing game in the NFL.

So you see it's not a simple matter of the fans in St Louis waking up one day and saying boy did we goof and let's over pay for a NFL team. It's a matter of principle and not allowing an idiot owner to hold you ransom.

You're right, there is always an alternative view.

 

[Cards Czar]

Cardiac, here is that you did not put out. Coryll got fired because he slapped a player on the sidelines and it was on National TV. Now the way he got fired (door locked) was bad. The Cardinals were never given a fair shake in ST Louis ( Yes all my family still lives there and when I get retire from the Navy next year I'll be there). Busch stadium was owned by the Busch's and they hung the Cardinals out to dry with not wanting to give them any revenue. They asked the city to build one and it was approved.
Now where they wanted to build the new stadium was on land that was on the border of the city and the county. The city and the county both argued for over 2 yrs on who was going to get some of the revenue from the stadium and the Bidwill's got sick and tired of it. When the state of Arizona said they would build them a stadium and they could get most of the revenue they jumped at the chance. Now that is where we are at this time.


Navy Mike

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by nidan
You are wasting your breath Renz, there are a few like Redstorm and Cardiac that have their answer already.

The only thing left is to hunt for things to spin into a reason for the answer. They have a closed mind on the subject.

And the anwser is "The Bidwill's are cheap"

I have not stated once this year that Bidwill is cheap. I have posted that if the Cards don't spend all but 2 million on this years cap I will start a thread that I'm an idiot and that koolaide has been very very bad to me. I don't think it's a money thing.

Bidwill always ends up using up his cap space. In the last couple of years he has also upgraded the film room (to NFL standards), given contract extensions before they were due, brought in a dietician, provided pre injury Cat Scans for all of the players so concussions can be monitored, hired more scouts, brought on more coaches etc etc.

So the man has learned he needs to spend more money. Where he still drags his feet is doing what some of the top organizations do in regards to pampering his players. His reputation is horrible and he has earned it.

Things are changing and that's why I typically find myself on the same side of these arguments as you. Review some posts and see that I think RG has done a remarkable job and this organization has turned the corner.

I will also admit that my mind is somewhat closed about the quality of owner Bidwill is. He's better but he has a history that is long and riddled with poor decisions.

I give credit to RG and Michael for the obvious positive changes that have occurred the past 2 years. I also have little doubt they have dragged Billy kicking and screaming into the modern NFL.

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by Zona99
Cardiac, here is that you did not put out. Coryll got fired because he slapped a player on the sidelines and it was on National TV. Now the way he got fired (door locked) was bad. The Cardinals were never given a fair shake in ST Louis ( Yes all my family still lives there and when I get retire from the Navy next year I'll be there). Busch stadium was owned by the Busch's and they hung the Cardinals out to dry with not wanting to give them any revenue. They asked the city to build one and it was approved.
Now where they wanted to build the new stadium was on land that was on the border of the city and the county. The city and the county both argued for over 2 yrs on who was going to get some of the revenue from the stadium and the Bidwill's got sick and tired of it. When the state of Arizona said they would build them a stadium and they could get most of the revenue they jumped at the chance. Now that is where we are at this time.


Navy Mike

I missed that Coryll slapped a player, not doubting you but I never saw it anywhere in print etc.

I believe Bidwill is the reason the Cards never got a fair shake. It seems many people in Az. feel the same way.

It's amazing how they got the whole city county argument settled after Billy was gone. Maybe I'm wrong on this but it seems that if they town truly wanted to keep the Cards they would have found a way. When I say Cards it translates to Bidwill.

The fact that Az. promised Bidwill a stadium on a hand shake and a wink pretty much says all we need to know about Bidwill's business accumen.



So Mike, do you agree or disagree with my assessment of St. Louis fans? I have lived in several states and believe they are the best fans around, at least in regards to baseball.

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by nidan
You are wasting your breath Renz, there are a few like Redstorm and Cardiac that have their answer already.

The only thing left is to hunt for things to spin into a reason for the answer. They have a closed mind on the subject.

And the anwser is "The Bidwill's are cheap"

The only thing that will "change" my mind is wins. Pretty simple.

 

[CoachBigDog]

Stout I agree with what you are saying

Originally posted by Stout
Er, there wasn't any, Jeff...but don't say that to most of the posters here, or you'll have your head ripped off!

No, seriously, I can understand why so many people on here just want to believe in Graves. I really do. Same reason why it took so long for people to admit Jake actually sucked. Because they desperately want SOMETHING, ANYTHING to cling to.

That said, I don't agree with them. I'll comment all the time on Graves, the Good (Blake and company signings), the bad (Losing out in FA on a pass rush, lying about June 1st cuts, not doing anything to improve the team lately, etc) and the ugly (weeell, see the bad, I guess).

But let's do this, let's give Rod Graves the benefit of the doubt here. Fact 1 Bill Bidwill has always strapped his teams. Fact 2 his organization has to come up with some cash to build this stadium so why not keep well under the cap ever year and see if this team can earn some of that money. Fact 3, Jeff Blake is a much more consistent QB than Plummer, Boldin,Pace and Johnson could very well turn out to be good gambles and Hodgins, Emmitt Smith and Dexter Jackson was a pretty good job by someone who lacks the socalled experience to do this job.

I am in no way supporting Graves or Jake, but I think that no I hope that the rebuilding of this team is underway and will yield good results down the road. One way to really prove this is for graves to sign lj shelton to a long term deal. Seems him and Kendall are the only solid OL that can stay healthy.

 

[Houdini]

Graves wanted Kordell Stewart to be his QB, not blake. Stewart said no and went to Chicago. How would you grade Graves if he signed Stewart instead of Blake?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Houdini
Graves wanted Kordell Stewart to be his QB, not blake. Stewart said no and went to Chicago. How would you grade Graves if he signed Stewart instead of Blake?

no one will answer this question dead on - spin city's coming - and between you and me - he'd still probably be given high praise.

 

[Duckjake]

Originally posted by Shane H
Aeneas Williams
Kwamie Lassiter
Ronald Mckinnon
Roy Green
Neil Lomax
Rob Moore
Frank Sanders

Many more!

Hate to spoil your response but the only person on your list who will put on Cardinal Red on Sunday is Ron McKinnon.

 

[nidan]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
no one will answer this question dead on - spin city's coming - and between you and me - he'd still probably be given high praise.

You want a direct answer ...

I am so glad we let Jake go, but I would rather have kept Jake than get Kordell.

That would have been ugly IMO.

I think Blake was the best FA QB available.

 

[nidan]

Originally posted by Cardiac
II give credit to RG and Michael for the obvious positive changes that have occurred the past 2 years. I also have little doubt they have dragged Billy kicking and screaming into the modern NFL.

That may well be true , at least somebody is doing it.

 

[nidan]

Originally posted by RedStorm
Nidian,

Did you see my friendly wager?

No can find it

 

[Duckjake]

Originally posted by nidan
You want a direct answer ...

I am so glad we let Jake go, but I would rather have kept Jake than get Kordell.

That would have been ugly IMO.

I think Blake was the best FA QB available.

I would have rather kept Jake and let all our defensive players, and defensive and special teams coaches go and replaced them with the best FA's available.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by nidan
You want a direct answer ...

I am so glad we let Jake go, but I would rather have kept Jake than get Kordell.

That would have been ugly IMO.

I think Blake was the best FA QB available.

Nidan - you avoided answering the question - how would you have graded Graves if he had gotten the man (Kordell) he first went after to replace Jake? Oh wait - maybe I didn't read right - was your response that it would have been ugly - does that mean it was a poor personell decision IYO on Graves' part?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Duckjake
I would have rather kept Jake and let all our defensive players, and defensive and special teams coaches go and replaced them with the best FA's available.

Letting Jake go was the BEST thing Rod Graves and the Cards did in the entire offseason. For that reason alone I said that I can give Graves a mulligasn overall for this season - mind you a mulligan is still a bad thing but the real proof will be next year -then there will be no excuses - although it's not like he didn't have a position like this in the past with the Bears and was at least partially responisble for the torrent of horrid moves that plague that franchise.

 

[nidan]

Sorry I thought that was a direct answer, it certainly was intended to be.

It was intended to read that IMO signing Kordell would have been mega ugly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by nidan
Sorry I thought that was a direct answer, it certainly was intended to be.

It was intended to read that IMO signing Kordell would have been mega ugly.

gotcha - so in essence - your'e saying that Kordell actually saved Rod Graves from himself there - whoo! Let's "hope" continually bad players and teams trying to trade with us continue on that trend. Wow - now I'm just being a jerk - sorry I'm bored and still edgy from last night.

 

[nidan]

Lucky is ok as well

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Nidan - you avoided answering the question - how would you have graded Graves if he had gotten the man (Kordell) he first went after to replace Jake? Oh wait - maybe I didn't read right - was your response that it would have been ugly - does that mean it was a poor personell decision IYO on Graves' part?

The question, itself, is totally meaningless. Kordell did not sign here, therefore it is nothing more than playing pure hypothetical mind games to even ask it.

Since when is making someone an offer the same thing as signing them?

It seems ironic to me that you (general sense) are so eager to criticise Graves/Cards for "not having a plan" or a "backup plan", yet at the same time you also diss him/them for giving themselves more than one option in this circumstance.
By making an offer to Kordell they kept that option alive, Blake came along (a better option, most would seem to agree) and they went that direction.

 

[nidan]

Down boy, it's ok.

I can handle Cheese

 

[Duckjake]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Letting Jake go was the BEST thing Rod Graves and the Cards did in the entire offseason. For that reason alone I said that I can give Graves a mulligasn overall for this season - mind you a mulligan is still a bad thing but the real proof will be next year -then there will be no excuses - although it's not like he didn't have a position like this in the past with the Bears and was at least partially responisble for the torrent of horrid moves that plague that franchise.

It may have been the best thing they DID in the offseason, but the Cardinals Defense and special teams have been far worse IMO than Plummer during the 21-43 run since the playoff season of 1998. And if it came down to keeping Jake or fixing the D and special teams I would have chosen the latter. For whatever reason the Cardinals, a perennial bottom 10 defensive ball club, continue to choose to use the offseason to revamp their offense instead.

This makes it seem the Cardinals are betting this season and their immediate future on the current defensive players improving as they gain more experience in the league. I contend that neither the current players nor the coaching staff have the talent to make that bet pay off. Yet the Cardinal faithful buy into the bet hook, line, and sinker because few fans can accept the fact that their favorite teams' defense stinks.

I've watched the same thing happen here in Austin with the University of Texas. Everyone wants to focus on the poor play of the QB and the offense when they have only lost ONE game out of their last 28 when their opponents have scored less than 35 points. In reality UT's weakness is their defense, and in particular their lack of physical play on that side of the ball.

6 new starters on offense, two on defense. Not much more needs to be said about the Cardinals front office.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Duckjake
It may have been the best thing they DID in the offseason, but the Cardinals Defense and special teams have been far worse IMO than Plummer during the 21-43 run since the playoff season of 1998. And if it came down to keeping Jake or fixing the D and special teams I would have chosen the latter. For whatever reason the Cardinals, a perennial bottom 10 defensive ball club, continue to choose to use the offseason to revamp their offense instead.

This makes it seem the Cardinals are betting this season and their immediate future on the current defensive players improving as they gain more experience in the league. I contend that neither the current players nor the coaching staff have the talent to make that bet pay off. Yet the Cardinal faithful buy into the bet hook, line, and sinker because few fans can accept the fact that their favorite teams' defense stinks.

I've watched the same thing happen here in Austin with the University of Texas. Everyone wants to focus on the poor play of the QB and the offense when they have only lost ONE game out of their last 28 when their opponents have scored less than 35 points. In reality UT's weakness is their defense, and in particular their lack of physical play on that side of the ball.

6 new starters on offense, two on defense. Not much more needs to be said about the Cardinals front office.

Hey I'm not disagreeing with you her about the defense - but with the ridiculous amount of cap room we had - it wasn't an either or choice that had to be made - they could have dumped Jake while at the same time upgrading the defense and signing Jeff Blake and whoever else they brought in for O.

 

[nidan]

Very few people blame Jake for all our problems over the last few years.

However, his play and salary were two of our problems

 

[Duckjake]

Originally posted by nidan
Very few people blame Jake for all our problems over the last few years.

Well I'd have to disagree with you on that. People blame Plummer for the traffic on the 101.