Nuggets @ Suns 12-29-18

[JCSunsfan]

I guarantee you that if the Suns were as desperate as you say they are they would have had a taker by now. It's not like they don't have the assets required to make a trade happen. The likely truth is that they really want to make a trade for a point guard, but not enough to make a big overpay for one. That is why a trade has yet to happen because they are not desperate enough to overpay.

Yes. This is true. You do not rebuild by overpaying for players. You gather a core. The time to overpay is when you are ready to find that final piece. Until this point, I do not think the Suns even knew for sure what that final piece would be. The time to over pay for a particular player might now be on our doorstep. But it has to be the right player.

 

[1tinsoldier]

"remarkable what he is accomplishing"

*Igor inherited Booker, excellent 2nd scorer in TJ (who entered season even better), #1 pick labeled "generational center" and 3 & D #10 pick in Bridges. also, the weakest links of last year's last place team were purged

yet he led this year's team to an even worst record

*Igor wanted Ariza. enough said about that.

*management added two excellent defensive players in Holmes and Oubre.
together with Bridges and JJ their defense is the #1 reason the Suns are now competing.

*widely criticized for under-utilizing the assets of Ayton and for JJ regressing instead of playing more disciplined ball

*pissed off TJ for starting JJ over him, after TJ had earned it

*was starting Canaan and playing him the 2nd most minutes until management intervened and cut him. Canaan is no longer in the league.

*Booker, Bridges publicly disagreed with a few of his decisions, and the announcers and just about anyone watching have complained about his time-out management, lack of play calling and poor and predictable fundamental strategies.

*mistakes are understandable for a rookie coach, but not so many for someone with head-coach experience and 17 years as an assistant. it is significant that he was never promoted by any of his past teams.

*low energy, soft spoken, and uninspiring to listen to in interviews and unemotional on the sidelines, so there is no reason to believe he is motivating anyone on or off the court. the Suns' record is supporting evidence

not remarkable -- not even acceptable

 

[AzStevenCal]

I guarantee you that if the Suns were as desperate as you say they are they would have had a taker by now. It's not like they don't have the assets required to make a trade happen. The likely truth is that they really want to make a trade for a point guard, but not enough to make a big overpay for one. That is why a trade has yet to happen because they are not desperate enough to overpay.

You're changing my message. I'm not saying we're so desperate we'll do anything to get a point guard. I'm concerned that we might be desperate enough, like some fans here, to overpay for mediocrity. But there's overpays and then there's OVERPAYS. I don't think we'd trade our 2019 unprotected pick for TJ McConnell but we might do it for Dinwiddie if that were possible. That's still a big overpay. IOW, if you re-read my posts we're saying basically the same thing.

 

[1Sun]

*Igor inherited Booker, excellent 2nd scorer in TJ (who entered season even better), #1 pick labeled "generational center" and 3 & D #10 pick in Bridges. also, the weakest links of last year's last place team were purged

yet he led this year's team to an even worst record

*Igor wanted Ariza. enough said about that.

*management added two excellent defensive players in Holmes and Oubre.
together with Bridges and JJ their defense is the #1 reason the Suns are now competing.

*widely criticized for under-utilizing the assets of Ayton and for JJ regressing instead of playing more disciplined ball

*pissed off TJ for starting JJ over him, after TJ had earned it

*was starting Canaan and playing him the 2nd most minutes until management intervened and cut him. Canaan is no longer in the league.

*Booker, Bridges publicly disagreed with a few of his decisions, and the announcers and just about anyone watching have complained about his time-out management, lack of play calling and poor and predictable fundamental strategies.

*mistakes are understandable for a rookie coach, but not so many for someone with head-coach experience and 17 years as an assistant. it is significant that he was never promoted by any of his past teams.

*low energy, soft spoken, and uninspiring to listen to in interviews and unemotional on the sidelines, so there is no reason to believe he is motivating anyone on or off the court. the Suns' record is supporting evidence

not remarkable -- not even acceptable

All 100% true and verified, and all completely ignored and disregarded by most on this board. It is an absolute mystery to me why the guy not only is getting a pass by so many but is actually receiving undeserved accolades.

Yes, he's a nice guy, but that's not enough in my book to warrant being grateful to someone for ruining the team...

By the way, has anybody noticed that Oubre has already started regressing? It took a whopping 5 games under Igor for that to happen...

 

[1tinsoldier]

By the way, has anybody noticed that Oubre has already started regressing? It took a whopping 5 games under Igor for that to happen...

it's too early to evaluate Oubre, but it makes sense that if a strong hand isn't in charge, the players start doing their own thing. and they are too young to know what's best for the team - which is often to just play a specific role.

 

[1Sun]

it's too early to evaluate Oubre, but it makes sense that if a strong hand isn't in charge the players start doing their own thing. and they are too young to know what's best for the team - which is often to just play a specific role.

I wager this is precisely what is happening with Oubre (not to mention all of the other players). The inmates are running the asylum, just like under Watson.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good grief! Why in the world do you believe he has shown no strength! This is a figment of your imagination. Again. He is the best coach we have had since DAntoni and I would not be surprised if he is better than DAntoni in the end. It is remarkable what he is accomplishing with this roster of NBA babes. Now we are going to have to hear inane complaints about Igor like we have about Colangelo, McD, and Sarver. Its just bull crap.

Were complaints about McD and Sarver really that inane/bull crap? McD was one of the worst GMs ever in the history of the Suns and Sarver is one of the worst owners in all sports right now. Do you know what it was like reading non-stop defending of those guys but a lot of people actually lauding McD as an above average GM... all in the face of completely atrocious results on the floor, in the community and in the media.?

As for Igor... right now, he's currently the head coach of the team with the worst record in basketball. There's a variety of factors for why that it is, but that's where we are. Personally, I think the jury's completely out on him and wouldn't call him a bum at this point, but to see him being called "remarkable", great, the best coach since DA and possibly Cotton one day is literally all coming from the exact same people who told the Anti-Sarver/McD people they were crazy for years, so maybe you should slow the roll on what's inane and bull crap for now?

 

[AzStevenCal]

but to see him being called "remarkable", great, the best coach since Cotton or DA and maybe even being better than DA is literally all coming from the exact same people who told the Anti-Sarver/McD people they were crazy for years, so maybe you should slow the roll on what's inane and bull crap for now?

Clearly you're quoting me in part but can you not see a difference in what I said and how you're phrasing it? I talked about the possibilities, the future, I did NOT say he has been the greatest coach since Cotton and it's one of my very few posts about him. It was brought on by all the "clearly can't coach" accusations. Here's my comment:

I wouldn't be surprised if fans a decade from now weren't calling him the greatest Suns coach since Cotton, if not ever.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Clearly you're quoting me in part but can you not see a difference in what I said and how you're phrasing it? I talked about the possibilities, the future, I did NOT say he has been the greatest coach since Cotton and it's one of my very few posts about him. It was brought on by all the "clearly can't coach" accusations. Here's my comment:

I know what you said steve, was just using shorthand. changed it above to be more clear because I didn't mean to imply you had said he's already at Cotton's level or better.

That said, I'm still pretty incredulous that anyone's seen that much from Igor to make that claim at this point and think you have a history of seeing the brightest side of the sun(s)... even in a total eclipse. I mean, you said that one day Earl Watson would be one of the all time greats. Not just as coach of the Suns... but in NBA history.

"Watching and listening to Watson, I really believe he's going to be one of the all time greats. Twenty years from now I really think he, and, unfortunately, Luke Walton, will be talked about the way Riley and Pop have been."

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...son-to-3-year-deal.234421/page-9#post-3396751

I just think the hyperbole swings both ways... the "he's a complete failure" and the "what he's done is remarkable/he's already the best since.../could be the best ever" are two sides of the same coin, IMO.

 

[1Sun]

I know what you said steve, was just using shorthand. changed it above to be more clear because I didn't mean to imply you had said he's already at Cotton's level or better.

That said, I'm still pretty incredulous that anyone's seen that much from Igor to make that claim at this point and think you have a history of erring on the brightest side of the sun possible, even in a total eclipse. I mean, you said that one day Earl Watson would be one of the all time greats. Not just on the Suns... but in NBA history.

"Watching and listening to Watson, I really believe he's going to be one of the all time greats. Twenty years from now I really think he, and, unfortunately, Luke Walton, will be talked about the way Riley and Pop have been."

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...son-to-3-year-deal.234421/page-9#post-3396751

Well, I do see tremendous similarities between Igor Kokoskov and Earl Watson, so perhaps that explains things here...

 

[AzStevenCal]

I know what you said steve, was just using shorthand. changed it above to be more clear because I didn't mean to imply you had said he's already at Cotton's level or better.

That said, I'm still pretty incredulous that anyone's seen that much from Igor to make that claim at this point and think you have a history of seeing the brightest side of the sun(s)... even in a total eclipse. I mean, you said that one day Earl Watson would be one of the all time greats. Not just as coach of the Suns... but in NBA history.

"Watching and listening to Watson, I really believe he's going to be one of the all time greats. Twenty years from now I really think he, and, unfortunately, Luke Walton, will be talked about the way Riley and Pop have been."

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...son-to-3-year-deal.234421/page-9#post-3396751

I just think the hyperbole swings both ways... the "he's a complete failure" and the "what he's done is remarkable/he's already the best since.../could be the best ever" are two sides of the same coin, IMO.

Well, I'm actually in agreement with you on Igor, it's far too soon to say what he is or will become. But I've seen the kind of improvement lately that I was wanting to see so I'm hopeful about his potential here.

And yes, I was way off on Watson. I really assumed that since he talked a great game and clearly had the respect of the players that he would live up to his reputation as a student of the game. It took me until probably mid-way through his run here before I finally turned on him but I still don't understand how he could have been as bad as he was. As for Walton, I might have over-stated his future especially now with Magic and Lebron in the picture but I do believe he's a good coach and will succeed somewhere if not in LA.

And you're right, the hyperbole does go both ways. But I reacted to hundreds of "he's horrible" posts before that pro-Koko comment. And while I haven't counted, I'm pretty sure that "hundreds" is not hyperbole.

 

[1Sun]

Well, I'm actually in agreement with you on Igor, it's far too soon to say what he is or will become. But I've seen the kind of improvement lately that I was wanting to see so I'm hopeful about his potential here.

And yes, I was way off on Watson. I really assumed that since he talked a great game and clearly had the respect of the players that he would live up to his reputation as a student of the game. It took me until probably mid-way through his run here before I finally turned on him but I still don't understand how he could have been as bad as he was. As for Walton, I might have over-stated his future especially now with Magic and Lebron in the picture but I do believe he's a good coach and will succeed somewhere if not in LA.

And you're right, the hyperbole does go both ways. But I reacted to hundreds of "he's horrible" posts before that pro-Koko comment. And while I haven't counted, I'm pretty sure that "hundreds" is not hyperbole.

Watson was always as incoherent when he spoke as Igor is. I have no idea what made you ever think he talked a great game. Watson was the original real life Jackie Moon "everybody love everybody" coach here that prompted me to use this pic as my avatar here. Igor is just continuing in that tradition, in my opinion. Neither had any business being a head coach in the NBA, in my opinion. The only difference is that Watson somehow was gifted such a position right out of the gate, while the rest of the NBA was on to Igor's deficiencies there for almost 20 years...until the Suns similarly gifted Igor such a position. It should have told the Suns something that in all that time no other team even considered Igor for their head coaching position.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, I'm actually in agreement with you on Igor, it's far too soon to say what he is or will become. But I've seen the kind of improvement lately that I was wanting to see so I'm hopeful about his potential here.

And yes, I was way off on Watson. I really assumed that since he talked a great game and clearly had the respect of the players that he would live up to his reputation as a student of the game. It took me until probably mid-way through his run here before I finally turned on him but I still don't understand how he could have been as bad as he was. As for Walton, I might have over-stated his future especially now with Magic and Lebron in the picture but I do believe he's a good coach and will succeed somewhere if not in LA.

And you're right, the hyperbole does go both ways. But I reacted to hundreds of "he's horrible" posts before that pro-Koko comment. And while I haven't counted, I'm pretty sure that "hundreds" is not hyperbole.

lol. fair enough.

I'm actually with you-ish on Walton. I actually think he's got the goods to be a very good coach. Winning 35 games last year with that Laker team was pretty impressive. They were basically the somewhat less talented version of this year's Suns with a bunch of rookies and first years and a rash of injuries.

I actually think he'd be a PERFECT coach for this team and also agree that he probably isn't long for LeBron-world.

 

[sdscard4]

I'm sure Robert would love to have Walton. I would freaking vomit.

 

[1Sun]

I'm sure Robert would love to have Walton. I would freaking vomit.

I don't think Walton is great as a head coach, but I would take him over Kokoskov any day.

 

[1tinsoldier]

"Watching and listening to Watson, I really believe he's going to be one of the all time greats. Twenty years from now I really think he, and, unfortunately, Luke Walton, will be talked about the way Riley and Pop have been."https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...son-to-3-year-deal.234421/page-9#post-3396751

I just think the hyperbole swings both ways... the "he's a complete failure" and the "what he's done is remarkable/he's already the best since...

Cheese, i commend you for your balanced approach and research.
but as evidenced by those quotes on Watson and Igor, the hyperbole swings heavily on one side.

i don't think anyone has or would use the words "complete failure" so that's a bit of hyperbole in itself

as i said before, all any of us are doing is speculating.
but when myself, and others, offer details on our positions, they are rarely refuted in any detail
and often responded to with insults (see how many hits you get on "ridiculous", "absurd", "inane", "troll", etc..)

But I reacted to hundreds of "he's horrible" posts before that pro-Koko comment.

"he's horrible" is also something i've never read here

maybe consider not "reacting" to every critical post because, yes, there are going to be hundreds over 82 games with any NBA team -- especially the losers

and because within a year or 2 (not 10 years from now), when Igor's not coaching anymore either,
someone's going to pull up your Igor quote as well (and it might be me )

 

[1Sun]

Cheese, i commend you for your balanced approach and research.
but as evidenced by those quotes on Watson and Igor, the hyperbole swings heavily on one side.

i don't think anyone has or would use the words "complete failure" so that's a bit of hyperbole in itself

as i said before, all any of us are doing is speculating.
but when myself, and others, offer details on our positions, they are rarely refuted in any detail
and often responded to with insults (see how many hits you get on "ridiculous", "absurd", "inane", "troll", etc..)



"he's horrible" is also something i've never read here

maybe consider not "reacting" to every critical post because, yes, there are going to be hundreds over 82 games with any NBA team -- especially the losers

and because within a year or 2 (not 10 years from now), when Igor's not coaching anymore either,
someone's going to pull up your Igor quote as well (and it might be me )

I'll own up. I think Igor is horrible and a complete failure as a head coach.

 

[BC867]

Good grief! Why in the world do you believe he has shown no strength! This is a figment of your imagination. Again. He is the best coach we have had since DAntoni and I would not be surprised if he is better than DAntoni in the end. It is remarkable what he is accomplishing with this roster of NBA babes. Now we are going to have to hear inane complaints about Igor like we have about Colangelo, McD, and Sarver. Its just bull crap.

JC, nowhere in your post do I see a meaningful response to the charges against Igor as a Head Coach. Just general comments and exaggerations, with no details to back it up.

Of course, Igor is in a tough spot with the chaotic leadership of the ownership and Front Office (even though you call referring to it inane). But if you look at every challenge that has come his way this season, and the way he has handled it, it has not been impressive. Igor has not shown strength of leadership or NBA-level decision making.

"Best coach we have had since D'Antoni" ... "better than D'Antoni in the end"? You are not setting the bar very high. Let's not forget that D'Antoni's "end" was being fired. For coaching for the short-term. No emphasis on defense. 7 1/2 player rotations through the season. Not giving young players a chance. Running Steve Nash into the ground down the stretch and in the post-season.

D'Antoni was a one-trick pony, the master of novelty. Hardly the one to compare any coach to. And what has he has he done since? And, BTW, who was his protege as Assistant Coach? Igor.

Then you said that complaints about McD and Server are bull crap? Really? Please detail where their leadership (??) has gotten the Suns for the past 8+ years. Among other things, the laughingstock of the NBA.

And as far as your namesake, the original JC, as I've posted before, Jerry was a great marketing man and behind-the-scenes Phoenix politician but, as NBA General Manager (who twice named himself interim Head Coach -- talk about ego), his leadership brought the Suns steadiness at a good level, but never dominance. He as much indicated his regret of that when he got a second chance with the D-backs.

I guess you and I have different concepts of loyalty to our team. Yours seems to be blind obedience, no matter how long the people in charge screw up. Are you happy with the status of the Suns during this decade. I hope that by this time next year, somehow miraculously, the Suns will have developed '2020' vision.

 

[Chaplin]

My question for BC and the others is why they even thought that a coach would be Popovich immediately?

I’m not thrilled with some of the things Igor has not done, but come on. There is NO coach that could take this roster and make them do better. None.

Name one available coach you’d rather have and please provide valid reasoning that makes sense from a basketball and business perspective.

I’ve been disappointed in some of what Igor has done (or not done as the case may be), but he’s been a better choice than many others would have been.

 

[elindholm]

Teams often value that pick more than 25-30 in the first round.

And yet we have never once seen a team voluntarily trade down from the end of the first round to the beginning of the second.

 

[BC867]

My question for BC and the others is why they even thought that a coach would be Popovich immediately?

I’m not thrilled with some of the things Igor has not done, but come on. There is NO coach that could take this roster and make them do better. None.

Name one available coach you’d rather have and please provide valid reasoning that makes sense from a basketball and business perspective.

I’ve been disappointed in some of what Igor has done (or not done as the case may be), but he’s been a better choice than many others would have been.

Chap, I'll respond to your question as I have in the past. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

There is a big gap between what has become a perennial losing team and Popovich. Leadership traits are an important part of leadership. Igor has shown hardly any.

As someone has posted recently, under Igor's leadership, "the inmates are running the asylum". That is a kiss of death for any manager.

Unfortunately, he is the only kind of subordinate that Sarver will accept at the GM and Head Coach level. Until Sarver steps aside, it is a moot point.

Unless Igor grows a pair as Head Coach and becomes a vocal leader of the team. On the court and in post-game interviews (and assumedly in practice and in the clubhouse).

 

[SirStefan32]

I was pissed that Ayton didn't get the ball much in the third, and decided to watch it again. It was difficult to explain without the video and I had no interest in trying to splice something together. Fortunately, someone else did it.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Jokic overplaying Ayton on the first possession.
Plumlee glued to Ayton and then Jokic takes over BEFORE Plumlee challenges Warren's shot on the second possession.
Jokic cuts off Ayton rolling to the hoop and then gets some additional help on the third possession.
Jokic, once again is glued to Ayton on the fourth possession.
Help defense (whoever #41 is) elects to sag off of Bridges in order to make sure Ayton doesn't get the ball on the fifth possession.

Nuggets shut him down. We've seen this with Booker in the first couple of seasons. Defenders would give him a different look and it would take him a while to figure out how to get the ball, score, etc.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap, I'll respond to your question as I have in the past. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

There is a big gap between what has become a perennial losing team and Popovich. Leadership traits are an important part of leadership. Igor has shown hardly any.

As someone has posted recently, under Igor's leadership, "the inmates are running the asylum". That is a kiss of death for any manager.

Unfortunately, he is the only kind of subordinate that Sarver will accept at the GM and Head Coach level. Until Sarver steps aside, it is a moot point.

Unless Igor grows a pair as Head Coach and becomes a vocal leader of the team. On the court and in post-game interviews (and assumedly in practice and in the clubhouse).

You keep harping on non-basketball deficiencies. How do you know?

 

[Trifecta]

The simple fact is that no experienced, respectable NBA coach wants to coach the Suns (Budenholzer and Fizdale being two obvious examples) so we are stuck with inexperienced coaches like Igor, Watson etc. This will likely be the case for as long as Sarver owns the team, so we better just suck it up and hope Igor has it in him.

Also, dumping Igor before his first season is even complete would be yet another PR disaster for the Suns that I'm guessing Sarver won't alow.

 

[SunsTzu]

And yet we have never once seen a team voluntarily trade down from the end of the first round to the beginning of the second.

And the cost is greater got teams who want to move into that range.

The only real benefit a high 2nd has over a last first is there is no slotted guarantee, but the actual savings realistically is only a few hundred thousand. You also lose a year of team control for players picked in the 2nd.