OT: Jonathan Martin leaves Dolphins

[Totally_Red]

Big SI story featuring aformer Dolphins lineman really calls into doubt the whole bullying accusation.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?sct=hp_t11_a1&eref=sihp

Incognito was made a scapegoat for the hell coming down on the Dolphins organization, which in turn said it knew nothing about any so-called hazing. That’s the most outlandish lie of this whole thing. The coaches know everything. The coaches know who’s getting picked on and in many cases call for that player to be singled out. Any type of denial on that side is ridiculous. I have friends on more than a dozen teams, and it’s the same everywhere. What people want to call bullying is something that is never going away from football.

 

[Dback Jon]

Big SI story featuring aformer Dolphins lineman really calls into doubt the whole bullying accusation.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/?sct=hp_t11_a1&eref=sihp

Incognito was made a scapegoat for the hell coming down on the Dolphins organization, which in turn said it knew nothing about any so-called hazing. That’s the most outlandish lie of this whole thing. The coaches know everything. The coaches know who’s getting picked on and in many cases call for that player to be singled out. Any type of denial on that side is ridiculous. I have friends on more than a dozen teams, and it’s the same everywhere. What people want to call bullying is something that is never going away from football.

Bullies never think they are bullying.

Reading the article confirms that.

 

[Mulli]

Bullies never think they are bullying.

Yes, and if Incognito was told to bully him, he could have stood have said no, right?

Those who carry out the code red are in the same boat as those who ordered it.

 

[Southpaw]

Yes, and if Incognito was told to bully him, he could have stood have said no, right?

Those who carry out the code red are in the same boat as those who ordered it.

"Befehl ist Befehl"

 

[BACH]

???

I have never heard the word '******' outside of the U.S.

It has nothing to do with our history here.

I have.. It means a header (as in the soccer term) in Danish...

That's spelled nikker, though. But the pronunciation is the same.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I have.. It means a header (as in the soccer term) in Danish...

That's spelled nikker, though. But the pronunciation is the same.

Right... hadn't thought of that one.

 

[Russ Smith]

Bullies never think they are bullying.

Reading the article confirms that.

And there is also a really weird tendency, maybe it's the Stockholm thing, where people deny someone is a bully even if they're the victim. I think in this case it's they don't want to admit they were bullied.

UCLA fans saw that firsthand when SI ran the Reeves Nelson story. I'd known for ages that Matt Carlino left UCLA in part because he was bullied by Nelson, it was a poorly kept secret. SI reports it, and Carlino refuses to confirm it he just says he had many reasons for leaving. What does he have to gain by admitting it, nothing. I personally know of a kid in that story who was a victim yet has declined to this day to say anything bad about Nelson. Nelson even got former teammates to sign a document on his lawsuit, although note none of them were actually willing to go to court and testify on his behalf, which was part of the reason his lawsuit was thrown out.

this is a bizarre story, I know Incognito is a jerk, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's 100% true, or if Martin winds up recanting, it's that confusing to me.

But it doesn't surprise me at all that players are coming to Richie's defense, the best way to make this story go away is insist there is no story.

 

[SO91]

Care to explain, cause I have never heard one stated that wasn't gone back on 15 minutes from the time I heard said statement.

Will said "very clear line" hold up in court where it matters ?

Furthermore, if it is a bad word, why is it used at all ?


I personally just don't say it, ever. Cause goodness knows if it is being "used right". Too many variables to make a good decision if you ask me.

If other people feel comfortable using it, and see a clear line, then more power to you. I am obviously not one of those people, so I just don't say it.

Only if it's Christmas Eve, and it's between 4:30 and 4:49AM...

 

[Darkside]

Piggybacking off your last line Russ, I think they're doing much more harm than good by coming to Incognito's defense. It makes it look institutionalized, which it largely is, it's a rough sport with a different set of rules than a normal job--probably closer to the military than anything else. It's wrong to apply a normal job setting to the NFL or locker-rooms.

Frankly, you put 50 alpha males in a locker-room and I don't know what people expect. They're the best athletes in the world with a crap-load of toughness and a never say die attitude. They're not my neighbor Carl next door with his beer gut and bad knees. And by the way, Carl is a great dude, but I wouldn't want him on my team.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Piggybacking off your last line Russ, I think they're doing much more harm than good by coming to Incognito's defense. It makes it look institutionalized, which it largely is, it's a rough sport with a different set of rules than a normal job--probably closer to the military than anything else. It's wrong to apply a normal job setting to the NFL or locker-rooms.

Frankly, you put 50 alpha males in a locker-room and I don't know what people expect. They're the best athletes in the world with a crap-load of toughness and a never say die attitude. They're not my neighbor Carl next door with his beer gut and bad knees. And by the way, Carl is a great dude, but I wouldn't want him on my team.

Best athletes in the world at their specific sport.

 

[Russ Smith]

Piggybacking off your last line Russ, I think they're doing much more harm than good by coming to Incognito's defense. It makes it look institutionalized, which it largely is, it's a rough sport with a different set of rules than a normal job--probably closer to the military than anything else. It's wrong to apply a normal job setting to the NFL or locker-rooms.

Frankly, you put 50 alpha males in a locker-room and I don't know what people expect. They're the best athletes in the world with a crap-load of toughness and a never say die attitude. They're not my neighbor Carl next door with his beer gut and bad knees. And by the way, Carl is a great dude, but I wouldn't want him on my team.

All true but I strongly suspect they've just been told if we all circle the wagons and insist Martin is the one with the problem, this will blow over faster.

Which to an extent is precisely what UCLA did when the SI story came out and the Nelson stuff hit. they'd already kicked the kid off the team, clearly stuff happened, but UCLA essentially denied the story was accurate and then said nothing and several players defended Nelson when it was WELL known among UCLA fans much of that story was true(and there were other things SI missed).

Incognito might even do what Nelson did and sue someone for defamation, it would be ironic if it was Martin since his parents are both lawyers.

 

[GuernseyCard]

All true but I strongly suspect they've just been told if we all circle the wagons and insist Martin is the one with the problem, this will blow over faster.

Which to an extent is precisely what UCLA did when the SI story came out and the Nelson stuff hit. they'd already kicked the kid off the team, clearly stuff happened, but UCLA essentially denied the story was accurate and then said nothing and several players defended Nelson when it was WELL known among UCLA fans much of that story was true(and there were other things SI missed).

Incognito might even do what Nelson did and sue someone for defamation, it would be ironic if it was Martin since his parents are both lawyers.

Given Incognito's history the court may find for the plaintiff and order a $1.00 settlement.

 

[Timm Rosenbach]

Here comes the lawsuit

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/07/david-cornwells-statement-regarding-jonathan-martin/

 

[moosehead]

What I am questioning is how it is okay to make a statement made by a group of black players that a white guy is considered black yet a black player is considered not black enough because of his background. Where is the logic in this?

Why is a black man rejected by men who are the same as far as skin color because his parents worked hard and created a better life that afforded them and their son luxuries and opportunities, not black enough because he didn't come from a background that may have had parents who struggled to keep things afloat or came from an impoverished community so it makes him not black enough?

cardpa - I rarely agree with you but yesterday I had a response typed up (disappeared when I hit "post" for some reason) that was almost word for word what you typed. This racial stuff is getting really hard to wade through....

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Quote from teammate: “We are going to run train on your sister. . . . She loves me. I am going to f–k her without a condom and c– in her c—.”

wow...classy bunch of "friends."

 

[BullheadCardFan]

wow...classy bunch of "friends."

That is so far over the line I don't know what to say.

 

[ajcardfan]

That is so far over the line I don't know what to say.

I'm sure Martin has a lot more where that came from. Eventually the Dolphins, and everyone else that has tried to turn this around on Martin, are just going to have to admit this stuff is plain ugly and shameful or be quiet.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

This whole thing is getting incredibly stranger by the day.

My question is, why does Martin need a lawyer and will "fully cooperate with the league's investigation"? It makes it sound like he did something wrong .

He's the victim but he has the defense lawyer. He's obviously going to sue or reach some kind of settlement.

In the end, I think 4 guys are going to be out of a job, Martin, Icognito, Philbin, and Ireland.

 

[cardpa]

cardpa - I rarely agree with you but yesterday I had a response typed up (disappeared when I hit "post" for some reason) that was almost word for word what you typed. This racial stuff is getting really hard to wade through....

Moose know what you are saying. Maybe I am getting too old to understand all this but there seems to be 2 sets of rules and I don't understand what the rules are.

 

[JeffGollin]

Setting aside, for a moment, the ins and outs of "who said what to whom...& when", there were some interesting observations in one of the dailies by Bill Parcells who said that (1) locker rooms are unique environments and (2) outrageous things are said and done within that environment but that when (3) stuff goes over the line, there are invariably players within that locker room who'll take care of the problem ("It ain't pretty, but it's the law of the jungle").

And Golic's partner points out that, as teammates get to know one another better, they know whether a buddy hurling an otherwise ugly and horrible insult really means it or is "just kidding around."

I get what both are saying (& along with it, the inference that a towel-slapping culture contributes to winning). The issue seems to boil down to whether stuff said by Incognito or other Dolphin players carried "mean intentions." (Evidently, Martin didn't perceive some of those comments - no doubt the threat concerning his sister - as "good clean fun").

But aside from all that, a question keeps gnawing at me: "If you are a mature young man with elite skills, raised by college-educated parents, educated at top schools and brought up to believe things like "work smart/not hard", "you don't settle problems with your fists" etc. - Is there a place for you on a pro football roster? (& if not, is this something that should worry Commissioner Goodell)?

i.e. Maybe Martin's best career option going forward to say "screw it. I don't need this. I'm better off pursuing a career in public service, Engineering or Wall St?"

Or - are there some teams where an introspective "gentle-giant? could be considered a valuable teammate and a worthwhile part of a healthy locker room environment?

I love this topic (because it involves a broader of set of issues that include bigotry, bullying, cultural differences, morality, leadership, management-styles, the health of the sport and what does or does not go into creating a winning football program).

 

[DemsMyBoys]

This whole thing is getting incredibly stranger by the day.

My question is, why does Martin need a lawyer and will "fully cooperate with the league's investigation"? It makes it sound like he did something wrong .

He's the victim but he has the defense lawyer. He's obviously going to sue or reach some kind of settlement.

.

His father teaches law. They'd know to have all bases covered. I'm not going to be a bit surprised if the day comes when Martin's attorneys say, "Here's the evidence." If he went to his family while this was happening his dad would know how to advise him from a legal standpoint. (Which would probably be the last thing Incognito or anyone else would think about.)

 

[MigratingOsprey]

very smart to hire a lawyer .... very smart to keep records of this stuff as well

it's funny when guys like McKinnie start getting vocal ..... maybe he heard that Richie is really good with his golf club and is looking to invite him out for the next boat cruise

 

[Russ Smith]

This whole thing is getting incredibly stranger by the day.

My question is, why does Martin need a lawyer and will "fully cooperate with the league's investigation"? It makes it sound like he did something wrong .

He's the victim but he has the defense lawyer. He's obviously going to sue or reach some kind of settlement.

In the end, I think 4 guys are going to be out of a job, Martin, Icognito, Philbin, and Ireland.

Because his parents are lawyers and he understands the system.

Today Cam Cleeland an ex teammate of Incognito issued the following comment “I’m not afraid to say that he was an immature, unrealistic scumbag,” Cleeland said. “When it came down to it, he had no personality, he was a locker-room cancer, and he just wanted to fight everybody all the time. It was bizarre beyond belief.”


I think it's pretty clear Martin isn't getting any "help" from the Dolphins so he's fully prepared and lawyered up now to take care of it through the legal system.

At this point he probably realizes his NFL career is over so he's going to use the legal system to get as much of his contract paid out as he can, and just move on.

The only thing I'm starting to wonder is maybe Incognito got treatment in the last year or so and that's why so many Dolphin players seem to be coming to his aid when others in his past think he's the antichrist or something?

 

[Russ Smith]

very smart to hire a lawyer .... very smart to keep records of this stuff as well

it's funny when guys like McKinnie start getting vocal ..... maybe he heard that Richie is really good with his golf club and is looking to invite him out for the next boat cruise

I had to laugh at McKinnie too. One of those reality real estate shows(I forget which one) had him on one episode looking for a place to buy. Huge guy, all he talked about was had to be party ready place, how close to the beach and the girls am I etc. It was very clear he was just a party guy and that's probably why he gets along with Incognito.

 

[moosehead]

Here is a great article: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9941696/jonathan-martin-walked-twisted-world-led-incognito

Martin was confused. He probably thought the bullying and hazing would pass after his rookie season. He wanted to fit in and make it in the NFL. The paycheck is incredible. He tried to laugh off the abuse and disrespect. He participated in it. He coughed up $15,000 for a trip to Las Vegas he didn't want to take.
Finally he snapped. He wasn't raised to be a full-blown idiot. He was raised to think and solve problems with his mind. He was savvy enough to figure out a physical confrontation with Incognito was a no-win situation. It wouldn't curb Incognito's behavior or change the culture inside the Miami locker room. It would confirm it. In order to win the fight, Martin would have to physically harm Incognito. It would not be a one-punch or two-punch fight.