Suns look to trade up to #2 for Williams

[leclerc]

History man... but you're right, if we can get Williams/Irving for Nash, #13 + x where x <> Gortat, not pick up ugly contracts, play like crap for a year, then we've got an even better pick next year. Sign Chris Paul and draft a PF. Bingo.

 

[slinslin]

Nash is a proven all-star with the ball in his hands and led the league again in assists. You would rather see it in the hands of a rookie learning on the job who is not as familiar with this team and system?

Huh?

Really?

It has never really worked the other way around or very rarely.

If you draft someone high give him the keys to the car. If you don't it will be much harder for that player to assume a leadership role and all that.

Especially playing with Nash will not develop Derrick Williams properly. He would probably end up a pure pick and roll player and not take advantage of his post game and isolation game.

 

[Covert Rain]

Really?

It has never really worked the other way around or very rarely.

If you draft someone high give him the keys to the car. If you don't it will be much harder for that player to assume a leadership role and all that.

Especially playing with Nash will not develop Derrick Williams properly. He would probably end up a pure pick and roll player and not take advantage of his post game and isolation game.

I don't have a list myself but I would be surprised it most players in that position (which are usually PG's) ran their teams day 1 when the previous season the league leader in assists was on the same team. Has that ever happened? I know some teams will start rookie PG's out of necessity but not when there is a HOF in front of them.

You can't castrate the the league leader in assists if you keep Nash. That is ridiculous. You don't take someone who is best in the league and turn the keys over to some kid who has not proven himself and has to learn a new position in SF (if that is what happens)....oh and hope he can be a point forward and run an offense he has to learn himself.

It's not going to happen and I personally wouldn't want that much pressure placed on my rookie.

 

[dodie53]

time to rebuild,
i hope the suns get a good rookie
and
trade nash, one of their wings for a decent big and picks

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't know if they can actually make a trade right now but as far as the Stepien rule goes, this is incorrect. IF they trade this years pick and next years pick and in return they receive a 1st round pick from either this year or the next year, it's my understanding that's okay.

Steve

Okay, I think there may be two different scenarios. And we agree on option one below.

1. The Suns can trade "this years pick and next years pick and in return they receive a 1st round pick from either this year or the next year, it's my understanding that's okay."

We agree.

2. A second option could occur, the Suns could wait until the draft and trade for a player (or even a another first round pick) during the draft or immediately afterwards. Effectively the Suns could bypass the consecutive year clause without worrying about receiving a first round pick back because they would be trading their own drafted player and next year's pick.

The thing I was getting locked into was that if the Suns wait until the draft they can use their #13 to select a player then trade the player selected along with their 2012 pick without need to get a first round pick back.

Please tell me I am not going mad because I can hear the siren and see some nice some young men in white coats at the door.

 

[JCSunsfan]

They don't have to be. I think both can be multiple time allstars.

I would be surprised if either player rises to all-star caliber.

 

[slinslin]

I would be surprised if either player rises to all-star caliber.

Ok man, * borderline allstar, **allstar level, *** franchise player

2010 Wall(***) and Turner(TBD)
2009 Griffin(***) and Thabeet()
2008 Rose(***) and Beasley(*)
2007 Oden(would have been ***) and Durant(***)
2006 Bargnani(*) and Aldridge(**)
2005 Bogut(**) and Marvin Williams()
2004 Howard(***) and Okafor(*)
2003 James(***) and Darko() next 3 picks Melo, Bosh, Wade
2002 Yao(***) and Jay Williams(would have been allstar certainly)
2001 Brown() and Chandler(*)
2000 Martin(**) and Swift()
1999 Brand(**) and Francis(**)
1998 Olowokandi() and Bibby(*)
1997 Duncan(***) and KvH(*)
1996 Iverson(***) and Camby(**)
1995 Smith() and McDyess(**)
1994 Robinson(**) and Kidd(***)
1993 Webber(***) and Bradley() next pick Penny Hardaway
1992 Shaq(***) and Zo(***)
1991 Larry Johnson(**) and Kenny Anderson(*)
1990 Derrick Coleman(*) and Gary Payton(***)

Save for some players that were just drafted that high because of size (Darko, Kandi, Thabeet and Bradley) I only see Stromile Swift and Marvin Williams who are not at least borderline allstar quality players.
Okafor and Chandler you could also maybe throw in.

But that is still just 8 busts in 40 players and 6 of them were centers.

Lets say I would like my odds of either Derrick Williams or Kyrie Irving making an allstar team.

 

[TJ]

I'm confused bro. No I don't agree at all about Williams being a "tweener". I actually think he is a better NBA player then college player which is saying something. I think he played inside in 2010 because there were no effective big men on the Cats and the role you saw him play this year (more handling of ball, flying around to block shots, shooting 3's) is what well see in the NBA then his post dominated game of 2010.

The player I see him most being like other then mayeb Danny Granger is.....wait for it wait for it....Lebron. Now he has nowhere near the passing ability and defensive game of Lebron and isn't as physcially gifted but his size, length, shot blocking ability, ability to get to the line, hops, and improved shooting touch all remind me of the King. Let me repeat I am not saying Williams will be as good as Lebron, or even close but I see Williams being a physical small forward who will get to the line. That is a premium in the NBA.

And Williams has more talent in his pinkie the Channing Frye has in his body. I feel pretty good about Williams maybe being ROY next year depending on the team he gets on and Channing wouldn't ever get that type of accolade. Frye seems to have gone from being unfailry lambasted by fans here to unreasonably held in high regard. I mean i like Frye and hes a stud off the bench on a good team whereas Williams should be a starter for years to come. Williams may not be a franchise guy, but he absolutely has the ability to be a Danny Granger/Andre Iguodala type player.

Frye, Dudley, Childress, Lopez, Warrick, S & T Brooks, Pietrus....man I give up any of those guys in a new york minute. Of course I would prefer to give up Lopez and a bag of basketballs, but I am not turning down Minny if they hold a hard line to Frye or Dudley - who I think both have real value to that team.

I totally agree on the defense part. That is his biggest weakness. Which makes him an even better fit for the Suns

Im shocked I'm having this convo with you homey! You know how good he is and even have him in your sig? You think Frye is/will be the better player???? Do I need to resend you the season highlights and specifically the Duke game??

Bro I wasn't disputing Frye v. Williams, but rather a) the value to give up to get the #2 and b) Williams' adjustment to the logo. Geez, get a clue

I think Williams has a high ceiling and can contribute on offense, but he is going to be going up against players with much more lateral quickness and better perimeter shooters as the 3.

I don't dispute your offensive assessment, but I compare him more to a shorter Amare as far as penetration, jump shot, and knack for the FT. I also want to see how he responds with a guy like Ron Artest or LeBron defending him.

He's a tweener from the standpoint he is used to playing underneath the basket. He had a surge on the perimeter last season, so I'm curious to see how that continues at the professional ranks.

As for compensation, I would hate to lose Frye for the same reason you dont want to trade Nash: he would make Williams a better player and the Wildcat relationship helps. Frye spaces out the court for him to either penetrate or hit open jumpers.

We'll see. Like I said, I'm no GM. But neither is Minnesota's GM

 

[TBaslim]

The entire Suns front office should be fired on the spot if they trade Nash for the #2 pick in this weak draft. Heck, in most drafts.

Now, #2, Kevin Love and Flynn? Would think about that one for awhile. But just the #2? Please.

Nash IS the franchise. He's a 2x MVP Hall-of-Famer. This is not the NFL, where you can punt older guys and build up a winner quickly. Parity does not exist in this league.

Winning in the NBA involves talent, experience and luck. The Suns have two of the three with Nash on the team. They have MAYBE one of the three (only MAYBE with mediocre historic odds) if they dump him for a high draft pick in a crappy draft.

Utah wouldn't trade Stockton unless he asked. Suns should not do so with Nash.

He wants out? Fine. Trade him or he can choose to sign somewhere else in a year.

Otherwise, keep building around him and getting more athletic and younger. Age is overrated in the league. It's all about whether you can still play. Look at Dallas right now. Lots of older vets with a few young sparkplugs. Suns need more talent to pair with Nash, not instead of him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The entire Suns front office should be fired on the spot if they trade Nash for the #2 pick in this weak draft. Heck, in most drafts.

Now, #2, Kevin Love and Flynn? Would think about that one for awhile. But just the #2? Please.

Nash IS the franchise. He's a 2x MVP Hall-of-Famer. This is not the NFL, where you can punt older guys and build up a winner quickly. Parity does not exist in this league.

Winning in the NBA involves talent, experience and luck. The Suns have two of the three with Nash on the team. They have MAYBE one of the three (only MAYBE with mediocre historic odds) if they dump him for a high draft pick in a crappy draft.

Utah wouldn't trade Stockton unless he asked. Suns should not do so with Nash.

He wants out? Fine. Trade him or he can choose to sign somewhere else in a year.

Otherwise, keep building around him and getting more athletic and younger. Age is overrated in the league. It's all about whether you can still play. Look at Dallas right now. Lots of older vets with a few young sparkplugs. Suns need more talent to pair with Nash, not instead of him.

good god, there's so much misguided thought in this post I don't even know where to begin.

I'll simply say this Nash, as "The Franchise" has led us to... the lottery for the last two seasons he hasn't had Amare. You just don't rebuild around that... especially since that Franchise is 37 years old.

and I'll look at Dallas right now... their centerpiece is a DOMINATING 32 Year Old with a lot of pieces around him... our centerpiece is a breaking down 37 year old with two role players around him. There's no comparison between the two.

 

[TBaslim]

good god, there's so much misguided thought in this post I don't even know where to begin.

I'll simply say this Nash, as "The Franchise" has led us to... the lottery for the last two seasons he hasn't had Amare. You just don't rebuild around that... especially since that Franchise is 37 years old.

and I'll look at Dallas right now... their centerpiece is a DOMINATING 32 Year Old with a lot of pieces around him... our centerpiece is a breaking down 37 year old with two role players around him. There's no comparison between the two.

Please. So would you have traded Dirk as the Mavs where getting rolled out of the playoffs the last few years, often in embarrassing fashion? How are the non-playoff years due to Nash? The team dumped other talent (Amare, Marion, etc) and didn't reload. Hence, worse results.

And I don't buy that Nash is breaking down, at least, not anymore than the last 7-8 years (during which he won 2 MVPs). He had a pretty steller individual season again last year. I don't see the drop off yet.

Anyway, my point was that he is not the problem for the Suns. Far from it. The challenge for the front office is how to retool on a budget. The Mavs rebuilt around Dirk multiple times to get over the hump.

The problem is their owner is willing to spend the $$ to do it.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

The problem is their owner is willing to spend the $$ to do it.

And we get Balance Sheet Bob....

 

[mojorizen7]

The entire Suns front office should be fired on the spot if they trade Nash for the #2 pick in this weak draft. Heck, in most drafts.

Now, #2, Kevin Love and Flynn? Would think about that one for awhile. But just the #2? Please.

Nash IS the franchise. He's a 2x MVP Hall-of-Famer. This is not the NFL, where you can punt older guys and build up a winner quickly. Parity does not exist in this league.

Winning in the NBA involves talent, experience and luck. The Suns have two of the three with Nash on the team. They have MAYBE one of the three (only MAYBE with mediocre historic odds) if they dump him for a high draft pick in a crappy draft.

Utah wouldn't trade Stockton unless he asked. Suns should not do so with Nash.

He wants out? Fine. Trade him or he can choose to sign somewhere else in a year.

Otherwise, keep building around him and getting more athletic and younger. Age is overrated in the league. It's all about whether you can still play. Look at Dallas right now. Lots of older vets with a few young sparkplugs. Suns need more talent to pair with Nash, not instead of him.

good god, there's so much misguided thought in this post I don't even know where to begin.

I'll simply say this Nash, as "The Franchise" has led us to... the lottery for the last two seasons he hasn't had Amare. You just don't rebuild around that... especially since that Franchise is 37 years old.

and I'll look at Dallas right now... their centerpiece is a DOMINATING 32 Year Old with a lot of pieces around him... our centerpiece is a breaking down 37 year old with two role players around him. There's no comparison between the two.

Its simply amazing to me that some fans still need this cold hard reality explained to them.
Of course to be fair,the SUNS front office and basketball people could certainly use some smelling salts too...

 

[Cheesewater]

The Phoenix Suns: Are They or Are They Not a Business?

As a business, you do not lose Steve Nash unless he wants to go.

 

[Folster]

The Phoenix Suns: Are They or Are They Not a Business?

As a business, you do not lose Steve Nash unless he wants to go.

A well run business should have foresight, and should not be afraid to make a short term sacrifice if it improves its long term future.

 

[Covert Rain]

And I don't buy that Nash is breaking down, at least, not anymore than the last 7-8 years (during which he won 2 MVPs). He had a pretty steller individual season again last year. I don't see the drop off yet.

Huh? Steve for the first time in his career had multiple injuries lasting 1/2 a season. His shooting took a major hit. There was a drop off, it did impact his play form a shooting perspective and he admits he physically couldn't do things he was used to during the 2nd half.

Dude is almost 40 and couldn't get healthy in 1/2 season. What is not to buy about him breaking down?

I will call it now. He will NEVER have a 100% healthy season ever again and will probably have issues next season as well.

 

[Cheesewater]

A well run business should have foresight, and should not be afraid to make a short term sacrifice if it improves its long term future.

It's not good business to get rid of your biggest money-making asset.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Such divergent opinions come from TWO sources, not just one. One is the divergent opinions on the value of Nash, the other is the difference in the value of players in THIS draft.

I believe that this draft is going to be alot like the 1986 draft. There will be very few good players. There might be a surprise in the second round, but I do not value it highly at all.

I think Nash's value is a little higher than some on this board think, but not nearly as high as others do. To tell you the truth, I don't think anyone really knows for sure at this point.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ok man, * borderline allstar, **allstar level, *** franchise player

2010 Wall(***) and Turner(TBD)
2009 Griffin(***) and Thabeet()
2008 Rose(***) and Beasley(*)
2007 Oden(would have been ***) and Durant(***)
2006 Bargnani(*) and Aldridge(**)
2005 Bogut(**) and Marvin Williams()
2004 Howard(***) and Okafor(*)
2003 James(***) and Darko() next 3 picks Melo, Bosh, Wade
2002 Yao(***) and Jay Williams(would have been allstar certainly)
2001 Brown() and Chandler(*)
2000 Martin(**) and Swift()
1999 Brand(**) and Francis(**)
1998 Olowokandi() and Bibby(*)
1997 Duncan(***) and KvH(*)
1996 Iverson(***) and Camby(**)
1995 Smith() and McDyess(**)
1994 Robinson(**) and Kidd(***)
1993 Webber(***) and Bradley() next pick Penny Hardaway
1992 Shaq(***) and Zo(***)
1991 Larry Johnson(**) and Kenny Anderson(*)
1990 Derrick Coleman(*) and Gary Payton(***)

Save for some players that were just drafted that high because of size (Darko, Kandi, Thabeet and Bradley) I only see Stromile Swift and Marvin Williams who are not at least borderline allstar quality players.
Okafor and Chandler you could also maybe throw in.

But that is still just 8 busts in 40 players and 6 of them were centers.

Lets say I would like my odds of either Derrick Williams or Kyrie Irving making an allstar team.

I believe this draft is alot worse than any of those. John Wall has to be considered a disappointment as a rookie considering all the hype. He has a chance to improve but shooting 40% from the field and 29% from the 3 along with 16 pts and 8 assists seems pretty pedestrian for a 1st overall pick.

Oden is not a bust? Kwami Brown? Olowakandi? Shawn Bradley? Jay Williams (woulda doesnt count). Am I not reading the same list as you?

 

[Covert Rain]

I believe this draft is alot worse than any of those. John Wall has to be considered a disappointment as a rookie considering all the hype. He has a chance to improve but shooting 40% from the field and 29% from the 3 along with 16 pts and 8 assists seems pretty pedestrian for a 1st overall pick.

Oden is not a bust? Kwami Brown? Olowakandi? Shawn Bradley? Jay Williams (woulda doesnt count). Am I not reading the same list as you?

Agreed. As you said some of those drafts were way deeper then this one. This draft is universally considered weak and with this Front Office I don't like our chances. In these types of drafts everybody reaches. If you trade a legit big man you better be damn sure you know what you are getting. I don't think you can in this draft and I would be nervous about #2 since the projected player is a tweener.

Most of these guys had similar hype and pedigrees coming into previous drafts. In fact, you could literally copy and paste a few of these guys scouting reports on some of this years draft prospects. I am sure a few of you could add to this list and there are some recent busts I didn't add. However, you could just as easily get one of these guys with a similar talent level (especially outside the top 2 picks). If this was a really deep draft like we had in the past I would be much more excited about moving up.

2009 #2 Grizzlies: Hasheem Thabeet
2008 #8 Bucks: Joe Alexander, West Virginia
2008 #12 Kings: Jason Thompson, Rider
2007 #1 Portland: Greg Oden, Ohio State
2006 #3 Bobcats: Adam Morrison, Gonzaga
2006 #5 Hawks: Sheldon Williams, Duke
2005 # 12 Clippers: Yaroslav Korolev
2004 #8 Raptors: Rafael Araujo, BYU
2004 #10 Cavs: Luke Jackson, Oregon
2003 #2 Pistons: Darko Milicic
2003 #9 Knicks: Mike Sweetney, Georgetown
2002 #2 Bulls: Jay Williams. Duke
2002 #5 Nuggets: Nikoloz Tskitishvili
2002 #6 Cavs: Dajuan Wagner, Memphis
2002 #13 Bucks: Marcus Haislip, Tennessee
2001 # 1 Wizards: Kwame Brown
2001 #4 Bulls: Eddy Curry
2001 #8 Cavs: DeSagna Diop, Oak Hill Academy
2001 #9 Pistons: Rodney White, UNC-Charlotte
2001 #11 Celtics: Kedrick Brown, Okaloosa-Walton CC
2000 #2 Grizzlies: Stromile Swift, LSU
2000 #3 Clippers: Darius Miles, East Saint Louis HS
2000 #4 Bulls: Marcus Fizer, Iowa State
2000 #6 Hawks: DerMarr Johnson,
2000 #11 Celtics: Jerome Moiso, UCLA
2000 #12 Mavs: Etan Thomas, Syracuse
2000 #13 Hornets: Courtney Alexander, Fresno State
1999 #5 Raptors: Jonathan Bender, Picayune Memorial HS
1999 #12 Raptors: Aleksandar Radojevic, Bartin County CC
1999 #11 Cavs: Trajan Langdon, Duke
1998 #1 Clippers: Michael Olowokandi, Pacific
1998 #6 Mavs: Robert Traylor, Michigan
1997 #4 Grizzlies: Antonio Daniels, Bowling Green
1997 #5 Nuggets: Tony Battie, Texas Tech
1997 #8 Warriors: Adonal Foyle, Colgate
1996 #9 Mavs: Samaki Walker, Louisville
1996 #11 Warriors: Todd Fuller, NC State
1996 #12 Cavs: Vitaly Potapenko, Wright State
1995 #8 Blazers: Shawn Respert, Michigan State
1995 #9 Nets: Ed O'Bannon, UCLA
1995 #11 Bucks: Gary Trent, Ohio
1995 #12 Mavs: Cherokee Parks, Duke
1994 #6 Sixers: Sharone Wright, Clemson
1994 #9 Celtics: Eric Montross, North Carolina
1994 #11 Sonics: Carlos Rogers, Tennessee State
1993 #2 Sixers: Shawn Bradley, BYU
1991 #6 Mavs: Doug Smith, Missouri
1991 #8 Nuggets: Mark Macon, Temple
1990 #6 Timberwolves: Felton Spencer, Louisville
1990 #8 Clippers: Bo Kimble, Loyola Marymount

 

[AzStevenCal]

Agreed. As you said some of those drafts were way deeper then this one. This draft is universally considered weak and with this Front Office I don't like our chances. In these types of drafts everybody reaches. If you trade a legit big man you better be damn sure you know what you are getting. I don't think you can in this draft and I would be nervous about #2 since the projected player is a tweener.

Without defining "weak" I'd have to disagree with this statement. I think most experts consider this draft short on superstars but reasonably deep in other respects. There is plenty of talent this year but there really isn't a sure fire franchise player.

For example, I love watching Derrick Williams play but there are a lot of years where he wouldn't go in the first 12 picks. He may end up being a top notch NBA player (along with several others) but there are fewer sure things than in most years and when you consider that even "sure things" sometimes disappoint, that's a scary proposition if you're considering paying a premium to move up in this draft.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Without defining "weak" I'd have to disagree with this statement. I think most experts consider this draft short on superstars but reasonably deep in other respects. There is plenty of talent this year but there really isn't a sure fire franchise player.

For example, I love watching Derrick Williams play but there are a lot of years where he wouldn't go in the first 12 picks. He may end up being a top notch NBA player (along with several others) but there are fewer sure things than in most years and when you consider that even "sure things" sometimes disappoint, that's a scary proposition if you're considering paying a premium to move up in this draft.

Steve

I think it's pretty universal to call a draft weak when you are not likely to find a franchise or career starter in the lottery outside the 1st couple picks.

 

[Mainstreet]

For example, I love watching Derrick Williams play but there are a lot of years where he wouldn't go in the first 12 picks. He may end up being a top notch NBA player (along with several others) but there are fewer sure things than in most years and when you consider that even "sure things" sometimes disappoint, that's a scary proposition if you're considering paying a premium to move up in this draft.

Steve

I agree. The Suns do not need another gamble on an Earl Clark type player. Unless Williams is projected to be a star quality NBA PF (a position he reportedly does not want to play) the Suns should not pursue him. If the Suns want to move up in the draft they might want to look at Toronto at #5 or other possible options with other teams that might cost less.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think it's pretty universal to call a draft weak when you are not likely to find a franchise or career starter in the lottery outside the 1st couple picks.

I would be stunned if there were NO career starters out of this group unless you mean from day one forward. And if that's all you're saying, well, that's often the case for most players (even those that grow into superstar status). I wouldn't even rule out a franchise level player out of this group although nobody has really stood out enough to justify that projection.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

Without defining "weak" I'd have to disagree with this statement. I think most experts consider this draft short on superstars but reasonably deep in other respects. There is plenty of talent this year but there really isn't a sure fire franchise player.

For example, I love watching Derrick Williams play but there are a lot of years where he wouldn't go in the first 12 picks. He may end up being a top notch NBA player (along with several others) but there are fewer sure things than in most years and when you consider that even "sure things" sometimes disappoint, that's a scary proposition if you're considering paying a premium to move up in this draft.

Steve

I think that is a very fair assessment. So you do not give up a proven asset to move up in this draft when you are probably as likely to get something with the 13 as you are with the 2.