Suns meeting Amar'e Stoudemire, final deal extension push before July 1

[TJ]

Dirk Nowitzki is the only one they should target to replace Amare, anyone else is a step back and they would be better of tanking next season.

I know you are partially kidding but we all said the same thing last offseason and we proved everyone wrong. You seem to forget that we have a great coach in Gentry, who I believe can coach up the young players, play a system which suits everyone, and has the respect of all in the locker room.

The loss of Amare does not necessarily put us into oblivion. The only thing that would destroy the team is if they fall into the trap of thinking they cannot win without him.

I seem to remember a time when Amare played only 3 games in one season and yet we still got to the WCF. If we were to bring in a player who although does not play as good of offense but is better at defense, there is a chance we would still be a threat in the conference.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The loss of Amare does not necessarily put us into oblivion.

Maybe the loss of Amare won't send us into oblivion but I think there's a decent chance we're headed there anyway. If Nash were fully healthy I'd like our chances but I really believe his injury problems and declining play are just beginning. We could get another season or two out of him but I think it's risky to assume it will happen. I don't like our chances next year if we lose Amare and Nash continues his fall from superstar level play.

Steve

 

[TJ]

Maybe the loss of Amare won't send us into oblivion but I think there's a decent chance we're headed there anyway. If Nash were fully healthy I'd like our chances but I really believe his injury problems and declining play are just beginning. We could get another season or two out of him but I think it's risky to assume it will happen. I don't like our chances next year if we lose Amare and Nash continues his fall from superstar level play.

Steve

Point well taken. Nash's health is a concern and despite what he has said about his back, I think his age is not helping the situation.

However, I like how Dragic is coming along. He made a tremendous leap from his rookie season to now. He has shown some signs of seeing the whole floor, hitting his guys in the right spots and switching to a scorer's mentality when merited. Mind you, he was working mostly with the 2nd string. I think we have our PGoF already on the roster, which helps curb my anxiety about who will replace Nash when he retires.

 

[Irish]

I found today's Coro article interestin

[

"There is no expectation for an extension to get done. The meeting keeps open the Suns' chances of competing with free-agent suitors and to remain cooperative in case of a sign-and-trade deal.

The Suns improved their offer earlier this month from a February offer that put off Stoudemire. But even a willingness to pay him maximum salaries is not enough, because the Suns do not want to commit to him for the maximum six years, a deal that would pay him more than $130 million but can't be insured because of his knee and eye history. The Suns saw MRI exams on his knees recently and remain concerned. Walters said they were the same as last year."

"The meeting is a chance to sit down and spend a lot of time talking about his future expectations and where our franchise is going and what's important to him and us," Sarver said. "He negotiated for a player option and that gives him a chance to look around."

Stoudemire spent time recently in Miami and Chicago, where teams will have salary-cap space, but also has interest from New Jersey and New York, where espn.com reported Knicks coach Mike D'Antoni hopes to talk to Stoudemire this week after meeting with another of his ex-Suns, Joe Johnson, who is also in Los Angeles. Stoudemire and D'Antoni had a rough parting, but D'Antoni needs upgrades.


Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...phoenix-suns-gm-stoudemire.html#ixzz0sGLE9x1p
/QUOTE]

I get frustrated by the way this stuff gets reported. It doesn't matter what the Suns could pay over 6 years. No other team can offer Amare a six year deal, so the $130 million number is a red herring IMHO.

What Coro and others have not told us is what the maximum some other team, such as the Knicks, CAN offer. None of the reports I've read say how much the Suns can offer for a three year deal, just thhat it is the max money per year.

All reports indicate.Amare wants to find a way to stay in Phoenix, but still thinks he can get a max max offer from somebody even knowing they can't insure for his health. If he's right, he's gone. But until we KNOW somebody will make this kind of offer, it is pretty speculative.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

The article is self-contradictory. Sarver is either trying to extend Stoudemire or trying to reduce payroll. He can't do both; that makes no sense at all.

It does in Sarver's world, where he thinks he can win championships while cutting costs at every corner.

Says Sarver:

"If we can sign Amare to a 4-year max contract, bump nachos up $2 bucks while cutting the cheese by 30%, we can afford to keep this team together!"





(Tongue planted firmly in cheek)

 

[The Commish]

I get frustrated by the way this stuff gets reported. It doesn't matter what the Suns could pay over 6 years. No other team can offer Amare a six year deal, so the $130 million number is a red herring IMHO.

What Coro and others have not told us is what the maximum some other team, such as the Knicks, CAN offer. None of the reports I've read say how much the Suns can offer for a three year deal, just thhat it is the max money per year.

All reports indicate.Amare wants to find a way to stay in Phoenix, but still thinks he can get a max max offer from somebody even knowing they can't insure for his health. If he's right, he's gone. But until we KNOW somebody will make this kind of offer, it is pretty speculative.

I've been over this in a few threads, but given how competitive and desperate teams like the Nets and Knicks will be, don't be surprised to see them commit to that 6th year via S&T with the Suns just to be able to land Amare. There are a lot of teams with enough room to sign max players that it will essentially be a game of musical chairs and no owner (especially Dolan or Prokhorov) wants to be left without a star to sell to their fanbase. I think Amare will get 6 years - where exactly is anyone's guess, but it will obviously be dependent on what Lebron does.

 

[mojorizen7]

Dirk Nowitzki is the only one they should target to replace Amare, anyone else is a step back and they would be better of tanking next season.

Sure, if we want the same type of player.

It does in Sarver's world, where he thinks he can win championships while cutting costs at every corner.

Says Sarver:

"If we can sign Amare to a 4-year max contract, bump nachos up $2 bucks while cutting the cheese by 30%, we can afford to keep this team together!"





(Tongue planted firmly in cheek)

LMAO

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Sure if we want the same type of player and probably the same type of playoff results.

LMAO

As opposed to going after what type of player to bring us a championship???

 

[mojorizen7]

As opposed to going after what type of player to bring us a championship???

Edited my post, but to answer your question i'd like a PF with a back-to-the-basket offensive game and an ability to get 10 boards/gm in his sleep.
Wouldn't every team out there though?

 

[AzStevenCal]

As opposed to going after what type of player to bring us a championship???

I'm surprised you don't know how this works. Every player that has won a championship has proven they are championship caliber and every player that has not won a championship has proven they are incapable of doing so. So we're looking for big guys like Luc Longley, Melvin Ely, Francisco Elson, Michael Doleac, Wayne Simien, Corliss Williamson and Elden Campbell. And Mojo will be happy because some of these guys are excellent rebounders and back-to-the-basket scorers.

Personally, I'd take Dirk in a heartbeat. I'd also rather have Amare than almost every other big in the game but NOT at his asking price. Unfortunately, both Dirk and Amare have proven they will never be able to win a championship.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I've been over this in a few threads, but given how competitive and desperate teams like the Nets and Knicks will be, don't be surprised to see them commit to that 6th year via S&T with the Suns just to be able to land Amare. There are a lot of teams with enough room to sign max players that it will essentially be a game of musical chairs and no owner (especially Dolan or Prokhorov) wants to be left without a star to sell to their fanbase. I think Amare will get 6 years - where exactly is anyone's guess, but it will obviously be dependent on what Lebron does.

I think a team willing to give Amare the 6 year max is really going to regret it later. I would love to get a sign and trade out of the deal.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think a team willing to give Amare the 6 year max is really going to regret it later. I would love to get a sign and trade out of the deal.

I know you said "I think" but I'm just not sure I'd agree with this. I think it's a horrible idea to pay Amare the max for 6 years but I think there's a better than average chance he'll be at least a decent signing for the length of his contract. For me, though, the risk is just too great to gamble with so much at risk. To sign a max deal I'd want something closer to an eighty/ninety percent chance that he'll thrive throughout the life of the contract. Especially when you consider that he is only marginally a first tier player (at least, IMO)

Steve

 

[mojorizen7]

I'm surprised you don't know how this works. Every player that has won a championship has proven they are championship caliber and every player that has not won a championship has proven they are incapable of doing so. So we're looking for big guys like Luc Longley, Melvin Ely, Francisco Elson, Michael Doleac, Wayne Simien, Corliss Williamson and Elden Campbell. And Mojo will be happy because some of these guys are excellent rebounders and back-to-the-basket scorers.

Personally, I'd take Dirk in a heartbeat. I'd also rather have Amare than almost every other big in the game but NOT at his asking price. Unfortunately, both Dirk and Amare have proven they will never be able to win a championship.

Steve

Haha, i'd take out the trash with those guys you mentioned. You need to remember it depends on who's playing next to whom when deciding who's the right guy to plug in to your team.

In the scenario that Amare departs,as of today we've got a frontcourt of Lopez and a bunch of who knows what?
I'm not convinced that a combination of Lopez and Amare/Dirk is a nice compliment to each other.....thats all.

 

[Gaddabout]

Houston is still interested in Stoudemire but they would have to do a sign-and-trade for him. They also don't really have anything to match salaries with right now. The mid-season offer was something like Battier, Scola, two second-round picks, and Brian Cook's expiring contract. The Suns wanted the Rockets first-round pick and they wanted to waive the medical, but Houston balked at the last part.

I don't know what they'd offer now to make it work, but I know they're still interested in finding a power forward to compliment Ming.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not convinced that a combination of Lopez and Amare/Dirk is a nice compliment to each other.....thats all.

I don't know. The Amare/Lopez combination showed considerable promise during the regular season. You can't really judge that tandem by their playoff showing as Robin was clearly a shadow of the oaf we've grown to love this year.

I started a thread a month ago that didn't go over well where I suggested we benefitted from an unusual amount of luck this year. I look at next season and cringe when I realize how unlucky we might end up being. Amare gone for nothing (or even worse, Amare recovering from his second microfracture surgery following his max dollar 5 year extension), Nash hobbling down the court for the 27 games his body holds up for and Lopez rehabbing from his 3 back surgeries are all quite possible stories next season.

By mid-season we may be praying for a lockout. Maybe we'll get lucky and avoid all this drama but I've been a Suns fan forever and I don't remember us ever having good luck 2 years in a row.

Steve

 

[Griffin]

I get frustrated by the way this stuff gets reported. It doesn't matter what the Suns could pay over 6 years. No other team can offer Amare a six year deal, so the $130 million number is a red herring IMHO.

What Coro and others have not told us is what the maximum some other team, such as the Knicks, CAN offer. None of the reports I've read say how much the Suns can offer for a three year deal, just thhat it is the max money per year.

Well, the Suns can offer 10.5% annual raises (based on first year salary) vs. other teams 8.5%. That roughly amounts to $1.9M annual raises vs. $1.4M annual raises that other teams can offer. So for a three-year extension (which would add two additional years to the final year remaining on his current contract) the total amount would be around $57M. A max three-year contract that other teams can offer would amount to just under $56M. Similarly, a five-year contract with another team would pay him about $4.5M less than a five-year extension with Phoenix.

Now, if the Suns don't extend Amare but instead re-sign him (to keep or to sign-and-trade) I believe those figures would be slightly less than what an extension for the same amount of years would entail (because first year salary should be restricted by the 105% rule unless someone knows otherwise) but the difference is not that much.

Here are my numbers:

				  Max raise	      1		      2		      3		      4		       5	       6
Phoenix extension	10.5%	 $1,857,041 	 $17,686,100 	 $19,543,141 	 $21,400,181 	 $23,257,222 	  $25,114,262 	  $26,971,303 
Phoenix new contract	10.5%	 $1,805,710 	 $17,197,241 	 $19,002,952 	 $20,808,662 	 $22,614,372 	  $24,420,083 	  $26,225,793 	
Other team new contract	 8.0%	 $1,375,779 	 $17,197,241 	 $18,573,021 	 $19,948,800 	 $21,324,579 	  $22,700,358 	

Total Phoenix ext.				 $17,686,100 	 $37,229,241 	 $58,629,422 	 $81,886,643 	 $107,000,905 	 $133,972,208 
Total Phoenix re-sign		 		 $17,197,241 	 $36,200,193 	 $57,008,855 	 $79,623,227 	 $104,043,310 	 $130,269,102 	
Total Other team		 		 $17,197,241 	 $35,770,262 	 $55,719,062 	 $77,043,641 	  $99,743,999

Edit: I knew I'd probably mess up somewhere. According to Salary Cap FAQ, ""the salary in the first year of the extension is limited to 110.5% of the salary in the last year of the existing contract. However, it also can't exceed the maximum salary the player can receive if he were to sign a new contract that year as a free agent". Assuming that "first year of the extension" would refer to 2011/12 (since Amare still has one year left on current contract and cannot be extended if he terminates early) and that the maximum salary Amare can receive as a free agent is 105% of 2010/11 salary (since this number is likely to be greater than 30% of the salary cap), the revised numbers would look like this:

				 Max Raise	      1		      2		      3		      4		       5	       6
Phoenix extension	10.5%	 $1,949,893 	 $17,686,100 	 $18,570,405 	 $20,520,298 	 $22,470,190 	  $24,420,083 	  $26,369,975 
Phoenix new contract	10.5%	 $1,805,710 	 $17,197,241 	 $19,002,952 	 $20,808,662 	 $22,614,372 	  $24,420,083 	  $26,225,793 
Other team new contract	 8.0%	 $1,375,779 	 $17,197,241 	 $18,573,021 	 $19,948,800 	 $21,324,579 	  $22,700,358 	
									
Total Phoenix ext.				 $17,686,100 	 $36,256,505 	 $56,776,803 	 $79,246,993 	 $103,667,075 	 $130,037,050 
Total Phoenix re-sign				 $17,197,241 	 $36,200,193 	 $57,008,855 	 $79,623,227 	 $104,043,310 	 $130,269,102 
Total other team				 $17,197,241 	 $35,770,262 	 $55,719,062 	 $77,043,641 	  $99,743,999

So the dollar amounts for a Suns extension vs. a new Suns contract are very similar. It's also clear that the Suns don't have much advantage over other teams in a shorter length contract.

 

[Chaplin]

Yi Jianlian was trade to the Washington Wizards today, so that effectively ends the possibility of a sign-and-trade to New Jersey.

 

[slinslin]

Miami waved James Jones for another 3M$ caproom.

 

[Go Devils]

I don't think Amare is going to get the offer he wants, He will have to come back to Phx wit something less than max in both years and salary. just my opinion

 

[slinslin]

Miami 3
New York 2
Chicago 2
New Jersey 2
Clippers 1

That's 10 max contracts and even if you rate Amare below Lee, Boozer, Dirk and Joe Johnson he'd be #8 still and most likely get a max offer from someone.

 

[jandaman]

I think Suns are playing chicken with Stoudemire.

Atleast we have an insight on why
(1) Stoudemire is desperate to opt out,
(2) Suns doesnt want to sign longer than 3 years extension
(3) Stoudemire is keeping Suns as his plan A even after being told they dont want to extend him long.
(4) Suns FAILED on any trade attempts during last season
(5) Suns are concerned they will STRUGGLE to convince another team for a Sign and Trade for 6 years at MAX.
(6) Wade, Lebron didnt approach him during the off season as part of the FA frenzy. As their respected GMs told them Stoudemire is a high risk FA.



The reason is.... Stoudemire's Knees are a concern, Stoudemire's contract cannot be insured factor that the CBA is under revision too.
So you have a scenario where a handful of teams are willing to risk the next 5 years in order to sign 2-3 MAX FA..... but Stoudemire to them is a HUGE question mark because of his injury history. You dont sacrifice your next 5 years on a questionable player in Stoudemire.


I think.... a few scenarios.

(1) Stoudemire is stuffed.... long term contract wise. He is looking at max 3 year from Suns or a yearly rental from the teams with Salary space.

(2) Stoudemire accepts a 3 year MAX extension (3 year 60 Million) with team option on the 3rd year. But no trade clause.

(3) Stoudemire accepts a 6 year 75 Million deal, evenly distributed for the duration to keep Suns under luxury tax this up comming season.



This is all based on the latest report that the suns are concerned about latest MRI results on his knees.

 

[Griffin]

Miami can't afford to pay three max deals even with the Jones buy-out, because "max" for many of those players starts at around $18M and they still need some money left over to sign other players. However, those rumors about Bosh, LeBron and Wade willing to take what would amount to a significant pay cut in order to play together in Miami are intriguing. This never happened before in the NBA and may set a dangerous precedent. How are smaller market, less desirable destination teams supposed to compete for the services of top-tier free agents when they have to pay significantly more to those players than the few elite teams that everyone seems to want to play for?

Certain teams always had an advantage in drawing free agents, but never before could they get the most expensive players for significantly less than their market value.

 

[slinslin]

Miami can pay 3 max contracts. The max doesn't start at 18M$ for them, it is about 16M$.

Miami has around 48M$ caproom right now and they might very well send Beasley somewhere in a sign and trade with a few picks.

 

[Chaplin]

Miami 3
New York 2
Chicago 2
New Jersey 2
Clippers 1

That's 10 max contracts and even if you rate Amare below Lee, Boozer, Dirk and Joe Johnson he'd be #8 still and most likely get a max offer from someone.

This is so simplistic it's not even funny.

There is a threat of a lockout that means no revenue, but still having to pay out tons of money. I can almost guarantee a team like the Clippers will not get a max player simply because they stand to save some money if/when there is a lockout.

Secondly, as has been mentioned before, a team with 2 max level stars and a bunch of vet minimum players aren't going anywhere. That is a team that will crash-and-burn.

And third, specific to Amare. He is uninsurable, which scares the Suns, and rightly so (add to that, the iffy MRI he had a few days ago). What makes you think a team like New York or Miami will pay him the max they can when they can't get him insured? It's an asinine business move, and Sarver isn't the only one who's thinking that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's an asinine business move, and Sarver isn't the only one who's thinking that.

You're probably right. But, New York is a different animal. They can afford to spend the max on Amare and swallow the risk. Especially if it convinces another big name, such as Joe Johnson, to also take the plunge.

Steve