Suns trying to be 3rd wheel in Butler trade to land Dragic

[1Sun]

Cardinals have a lot more problems than just their receiving corps.

And the Suns PG problem is an issue but if the Suns paid Booker the max to be a Harden type facilitator too then this will be his opportunity to do just that.

We saw last year that trying to make Booker a Harden type facilitator not only doesn't work at point guard, but also majorly detracts from Booker's performance overall, wears him down and gets him hurt.

 

[1Sun]

It's safe to say that we probably have improved at every position so putting last year's record as our ceiling makes no sense to me. And there is no real similarity between what the Cards have done and what the Suns are doing. Just because two entertainers suggest there's a reasonable comparison, that doesn't mean there actually is one. AFAIC, many of us know a hell of a lot more about the Cards and the Suns than either one of those guys do. Unlike them, some of us here actually watch every game these teams play.

As do I, which is why I believe the point guard position is as important to an NBA team as QB is to an NFL teams. Remember what happened when Kurt Warner retired and was replaced with...Derek Anderson?

 

[1Sun]

I don't follow football, so I have no idea what's going on with the Cardinals, but your first sentence is spot on. Last season, the Suns were outmatched on every position except for SG and on some night SF. They are no worse on PG than last year, and if they are, it's marginal. With Bridges and Ariza, along with an older JJ, they are better at 2 and 3 than they were last year, and with Ariza and Anderson, they are stronger at 4 as well. While I am not buying into the Ayton hype, he cannot possibly be worse than Alex Len, so I am confident they are better at 5 too. Do I wish they manage to trade for a legitimate point guard? Absolutely! However, even with the current roster, the Suns should be far better than last year.

I guess I just believe point guard is more critical to success in the NBA than you do.

 

[sunsfan88]

Gambo says the Suns have not had any talks about Teague.

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[1Sun]

In addition, I'd say that the point guard rotation is also NO WORSE than last year. If the PG rotation is on par with last year, but EVERY other position is improved, the math simply doesn't work when predicting no change in final record.

Unless, of course, we have less iso players and a new offensive system that depends on precision passing, which means we are more dependent on a quality point guard who can make the proper and accurate passes, and we don't have one of those...

 

[Chaplin]

Unless, of course, we have less iso players and a new offensive system that depends on precision passing, which means we are more dependent on a quality point guard who can make the proper and accurate passes, and we don't have one of those...

The offense that Igor is installing requires all players to be willing and competent passers. So even if the PGs aren't the greatest passers, we make up for it in other positions--a lot of which we didn't have last year.

You, like BC before you, are putting our entire success (or failure) on the shoulders of the point guards. That may have been true years ago, but not in today's NBA.

They aren't the greatest players, sure. But you have repeatedly said a) our record will be THE SAME as last year and b) it will ruin the development of our young players. Both of which are completely off base with no real quantifiable basis in reality.

 

[AzStevenCal]

As do I, which is why I believe the point guard position is as important to an NBA team as QB is to an NFL teams. Remember what happened when Kurt Warner retired and was replaced with...Derek Anderson?

I couldn't agree less, QB is far more important than PG. And no, I don't remember anyone named Derek Anderson - or Max Hall, or John Skelton, or Kevin Kolb, or Brian Hoyer, or Ryan Lindley.

 

[1Sun]

The offense that Igor is installing requires all players to be willing and competent passers. So even if the PGs aren't the greatest passers, we make up for it in other positions--a lot of which we didn't have last year.

You, like BC before you, are putting our entire success (or failure) on the shoulders of the point guards. That may have been true years ago, but not in today's NBA.

They aren't the greatest players, sure. But you have repeatedly said a) our record will be THE SAME as last year and b) it will ruin the development of our young players. Both of which are completely off base with no real quantifiable basis in reality.

I guess we'll see. In the meantime, name one successful team in today's NBA that doesn't have at least an average point guard.

 

[BC867]

You, like BC before you, are putting our entire success (or failure) on the shoulders of the point guards. That may have been true years ago, but not in today's NBA.

What an exaggeration. Neither 1Sun nor I ever said entire. There are five players on the court. Playing the point on offense and defense is one of them.

Having Booker bring the ball up or chasing after his opponent who does ... I'm not even going to go on. Your post is so ludicrous.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What an exaggeration. Neither 1Sun nor I ever said entire. There are five players on the court. Playing the point on offense and defense is one of them.

Having Booker bring the ball up or chasing after his opponent who does ... I'm not even going to go on. Your post is so ludicrous.

I think you might have glossed over a post or two from 1Sun. He's expecting our players to be set back at least 5 years because of our point guards and he's confident that the best we can possibly hope for is to match our historically bad win-loss record of last season. So while I wouldn't put you next to him on this, it sure seems to me like he is basing our entire team on the performance of our point guards.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We saw last year that trying to make Booker a Harden type facilitator not only doesn't work at point guard, but also majorly detracts from Booker's performance overall, wears him down and gets him hurt.

fake news.

 

[SirStefan32]

fake news.

I am convinced that 1Sun and BC are the same person. Nobody other than BC has ever made the "wears him down and gets him hurt" argument until 1Suns magically appeared a couple of weeks ago.

 

[BC867]

I think you might have glossed over a post or two from 1Sun. He's expecting our players to be set back at least 5 years because of our point guards and he's confident that the best we can possibly hope for is to match our historically bad win-loss record of last season. So while I wouldn't put you next to him on this, it sure seems to me like he is basing our entire team on the performance of our point guards.

My concern, Steve, is how playing DBook as our de-facto Point Guard will wear him down. He has not been injury free. And weariness over a season has to affect his precision as a shooter. That is exactly what happened when the Suns sister team, the Mercury, moved Diana Taurus (the greatest Shooting Guard in the history of the WNBA) to the Point in the playoffs. And it wore her down and her outside shooting became worthless. Yes, she's older than Booker, but weariness is weariness.

And all this talk about four sub-par Point Guards on our team being equal to one solid one ... I just don't buy it. It's five-on-five every minute of every game. All it takes is one weakness to be the difference in a game. Whether it is playing your star Guard out of position or a barrage of inferior or unproven Point Guards coming up short.

As the saying goes (I originated this one, I think), it doesn't matter if you are good or bad. Just that you are better than your opponent on any given night.


Edit: I just read the last two posts while I was typing. Ouchie's "fake news"? That's the opposing point of view? That's it?

 

[Hoop Head]

Apparently the price was too steep for the Suns to work their way into the Minnesota/Miami Butler deal and they are no longer a part of it, if they ever really were. That's according to Woj. I can't see the Suns taking on Teague although I might prefer him to Dragic at this point. Jones would be a solid acquisition but with his salary so low I don't see why Minnesota would move him unless we were to take on a salary like Diengs and that should not even be considered.

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[1tinsoldier]

we are absolutely going to be better on defense
and i'm not just saying that because when your last there's no where to go but up

the subtractions from the roster are a plus in itself

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am convinced that 1Sun and BC are the same person. Nobody other than BC has ever made the "wears him down and gets him hurt" argument until 1Suns magically appeared a couple of weeks ago.

Bingo.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I am convinced that 1Sun and BC are the same person. Nobody other than BC has ever made the "wears him down and gets him hurt" argument until 1Suns magically appeared a couple of weeks ago.

They aren't the same person. And while I disagree that Booker's injuries had anything to do with him playing PG, I do believe it wore him down and made him less effective. IMO though that had more to do with the lack of talent around him. The defense was already keying on him, keeping the ball in his hands just made it that much easier. I think anyone would wear down trying to initiate offense with 2 or more players frequently defending him. Hopefully we have enough weapons to keep that from happening during his stretches running the offense from now on.

 

[Phrazbit]

If the point guard rotation remains as is, yes.

Burns and Gambo had an interesting analogy in this afternoon's show. They compared what the Suns are doing at point guard with what the Cardinals did at wide receiver in the offseason, concluding that the Suns could not afford to make the same mistake the Cardinals did by assuming they are set at a key position just because they brought in a couple of young guys as new faces.

We all see what a disaster resulted from the Cardinals' approach...

Umm... I am willing to wager, literally anything, that you're wrong.

The point guard situation HAS improved because our least effective PG (Elfrid) is no longer around.

I think we need an upgrade at the point, our point guard rotation stinks, on paper at least, but we've made drastic upgrades to other positions, we're almost certain to no longer deliberately be losing and I think the coaching staff is a huuuuuuuge upgrade.

And as an aside, Burns is the the absolute worst sports reporter/analyst I've ever heard. Him and his analogies are absolutely painful to listen to.

 

[taz02]

I think Booker being worn out was more a result of having to do everything every game.

I don't understand why a max player who is 21 cannot be relied on to run the offense during the "regular" season if he is capable. Especially since we aren't concerned about a long playoff run.

I'd argue that being double teamed, relied on to score 70 and run the offense wore him down. It wears me down just thinking about it.

It should not be as big an issue this year. Hopefully Ariza, Bridges and Ayton will alleviate the scoring pressure. JJ can bring the ball up and Booker can run the half court with our PG's being backups by committee.

With Bridges, Ayton, Ariza, JJ and Booker on the floor its going to be tough to double team Booker and he won't be relied on to score as much.

Having a top notch PG is of course ideal but a sound plan B is ball movement with Booker running the show most of the time.

 

[devilalum]

We saw last year that trying to make Booker a Harden type facilitator not only doesn't work at point guard, but also majorly detracts from Booker's performance overall, wears him down and gets him hurt.

True but last year he didn’t have Ayton for the PNR.


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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

My concern, Steve, is how playing DBook as our de-facto Point Guard will wear him down. He has not been injury free. And weariness over a season has to affect his precision as a shooter. That is exactly what happened when the Suns sister team, the Mercury, moved Diana Taurus (the greatest Shooting Guard in the history of the WNBA) to the Point in the playoffs. And it wore her down and her outside shooting became worthless. Yes, she's older than Booker, but weariness is weariness.

And all this talk about four sub-par Point Guards on our team being equal to one solid one ... I just don't buy it. It's five-on-five every minute of every game. All it takes is one weakness to be the difference in a game. Whether it is playing your star Guard out of position or a barrage of inferior or unproven Point Guards coming up short.

As the saying goes (I originated this one, I think), it doesn't matter if you are good or bad. Just that you are better than your opponent on any given night.


Edit: I just read the last two posts while I was typing. Ouchie's "fake news"? That's the opposing point of view? That's it?

I tire of typing the same thing over and over in response to the same thing you and 1Sun type over and over.

 

[devilalum]

I tire of typing the same thing over and over in response to the same thing you and 1Sun type over and over.

Isn’t that 90% of the dribble we sell on here?

Sometimes it just becomes an exercise in mental masturbation.


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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Isn’t that 90% of the dribble we sell on here?

Sometimes it just becomes an exercise in mental masturbation.


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Agreed, but typically when posters bring up a topic they might have a slightly different bent on it or use it in a slightly different way. With the “worn down abs injured becasue pg” stuff it never changes. It feels like just cut ‘n paste in every thread.

 

[devilalum]

Yeah and it’s worst during these long stretches when nothing is actually happening. No draft, no games. I’m excited for the season to start.


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[overseascardfan]

Bruce Cooper is a TV sports guy right? I can't remember what channel he's on, either 12/NBC or 15/ABC, I think. Has a TV sports reporter broken any news before? I can't recall hearing any that knew their stuff that well.

I would be a little surprised if we pull off a deal for a Jeff Teague type of player. Tyus Jones seems reasonable and realistic. Making a trade that requires as much moving salary as Teague, Dragic, or Kemba would be difficult and I believe would have happened before training camp. Jones is a good prospect but still a prospect that is on a rookie deal.

He’s Channel 12 but pretty sure he got his info from Woj who I trust more than Gambo. Gambo probably has same sources within the Suns organization as Cooper as they are both local. Woj probably has far more league wide sources than Gambo so even if Gambo is told PHX has no interest they could be blowing him smoke whereas Woj is probably getting info from MIN.