Suns updates and discussion for the 2023-24 season

[Superbone]

I like Yuta a lot but he is so valuable coming off the bench. He can fill almost any need.

Plus, it's Okogie's job to lose and so far he has been fantastic.

 

[CardNots]

I didn't compare their roles, at all. Of course you want to twist what I said when no one seemed to take issue with what I said. Vogel is very positive and talks people up. That's what he does. When he's asked about a player he sells you on them. Like I said initially, if he were asked about D.Lee, Keon, or Bol Bol then I'd expect a similar sound bite. Go ahead and continue cheerleading for Ish, that's fine, but don't try and misrepresent what I said.

I’ve never had an eye for Ish. I do not understand why some would…

 

[AzStevenCal]

I’ve never had an eye for Ish. I do not understand why some would…

I do. He's a hard nosed, full throttle veteran who works hard in practice, leads the bench cheerleading group, and goes all out when he's on the court during garbage time. For your 15th man, you can't ask for more than that IMO. The problem is, we were so depleted last season that we regularly had him filling the role of a rotation player which is asking a lot of someone who belongs at the end of the bench.

I won't be bothered at all if we release him, I just don't know why getting rid of him seems so important to some here. Usually, your 15th best player is a raw kid that you're developing or a veteran on his last legs. But we aren't set up to develop kids right now. And with so many injury issues on our roster, having someone on the bench like Ish instead of a senior citizen seems like a good thing to me. He can go days or weeks without seeing the court yet still be able to almost impersonate a rotation player when forced into the lineup.

For me, we're probably better off with either someone like Ish or someone like Biyombo. And I'd be fine with either direction. But I look forward to the day when we have a G League team and the coaches on staff that can work with a young player. It's a lot more fun when you have an intriguing project that can enter the game in garbage time.

 

[Hoop Head]

I do. He's a hard nosed, full throttle veteran who works hard in practice, leads the bench cheerleading group, and goes all out when he's on the court during garbage time. For your 15th man, you can't ask for more than that IMO. The problem is, we were so depleted last season that we regularly had him filling the role of a rotation player which is asking a lot of someone who belongs at the end of the bench.

I won't be bothered at all if we release him, I just don't know why getting rid of him seems so important to some here. Usually, your 15th best player is a raw kid that you're developing or a veteran on his last legs. But we aren't set up to develop kids right now. And with so many injury issues on our roster, having someone on the bench like Ish instead of a senior citizen seems like a good thing to me. He can go days or weeks without seeing the court yet still be able to almost impersonate a rotation player when forced into the lineup.

For me, we're probably better off with either someone like Ish or someone like Biyombo. And I'd be fine with either direction. But I look forward to the day when we have a G League team and the coaches on staff that can work with a young player. It's a lot more fun when you have an intriguing project that can enter the game in garbage time.

As one of those accused of wanting him cut, I take issue with that. I think it's a formality he will be cut and when stating as much I'm genuinely surprised by the pushback. He's nearing 30 and isn't big enough to be a C, quick enough to be a forward, and really doesn't offer any NBA level skill consistently be it shooting, defense, or whatever. Sure, he hit some corner 3's during a stretch but so did Okogie and we saw what he became in the postseason. Ish is the last person we should be counting on when the team has title aspirations. We saw it last year, injuries can pile up and I'd rather the 15th man be a veteran who has shown skill at some point like Biz or be a young guy who might improve, Bol Bol or Keon. So Ish doesn't make sense for this team anymore, IMO. The fact he's been injured and missed most of camp and all of preseason also puts him at a serious disadvantage in terms of developing chemistry and familiarity with others. So I dont see the point in waving anyone who may have disappointed before the guy who has shown nothing.

 

[Chaplin]

As one of those accused of wanting him cut, I take issue with that. I think it's a formality he will be cut and when stating as much I'm genuinely surprised by the pushback. He's nearing 30 and isn't big enough to be a C, quick enough to be a forward, and really doesn't offer any NBA level skill consistently be it shooting, defense, or whatever. Sure, he hit some corner 3's during a stretch but so did Okogie and we saw what he became in the postseason. Ish is the last person we should be counting on when the team has title aspirations. We saw it last year, injuries can pile up and I'd rather the 15th man be a veteran who has shown skill at some point like Biz or be a young guy who might improve, Bol Bol or Keon. So Ish doesn't make sense for this team anymore, IMO. The fact he's been injured and missed most of camp and all of preseason also puts him at a serious disadvantage in terms of developing chemistry and familiarity with others. So I dont see the point in waving anyone who may have disappointed before the guy who has shown nothing.

There’s a lot wrong in this post, but whatever. You seem personally insulted by this conversation, so we’ll leave it at that. The off-season sucks.

 

[Hoop Head]

There’s a lot wrong in this post, but whatever. You seem personally insulted by this conversation, so we’ll leave it at that. The off-season sucks.

Not everyone takes, or makes, things personal, Chap. Stop projecting.

 

[AzStevenCal]

As one of those accused of wanting him cut, I take issue with that. I think it's a formality he will be cut and when stating as much I'm genuinely surprised by the pushback. He's nearing 30 and isn't big enough to be a C, quick enough to be a forward, and really doesn't offer any NBA level skill consistently be it shooting, defense, or whatever. Sure, he hit some corner 3's during a stretch but so did Okogie and we saw what he became in the postseason. Ish is the last person we should be counting on when the team has title aspirations. We saw it last year, injuries can pile up and I'd rather the 15th man be a veteran who has shown skill at some point like Biz or be a young guy who might improve, Bol Bol or Keon. So Ish doesn't make sense for this team anymore, IMO. The fact he's been injured and missed most of camp and all of preseason also puts him at a serious disadvantage in terms of developing chemistry and familiarity with others. So I dont see the point in waving anyone who may have disappointed before the guy who has shown nothing.

Nah, wanting him cut isn't really what I'm talking about. To me, Ish is someone that is almost good enough to be in the rotation but isn't and at his age, isn't likely to ever reach that point. So, if you have a better option fine. But I think some here forget or ignore what the role is for the last man or two on the bench.

Biz would be a great choice given that, when he can play, he's far more useful than Ish, Bol or Keon. But unfortunatley he's also far more likely to be unavailable. And he can't give us much of anything in practice because of those knees. And I think the practice squad gets ignored too often when fans talk about filling out a roster.

And as far as giving the spot to a young gun, we just aren't set up to give them regular rotation minutes or aid in their development. I grew up believing that young players shouldn't see the court until they earned it but the past 20 years or so have changed my opinion. Every player turned analyst says the same thing, young players needs to understand their role and have regular rotation minutes. When they aren't in that kind of a situation, they fail. There's no way we can give a project regular minutes and without a G League team, we'd just be setting him up for failure.

So, again, I'm fine with Ish on this roster. If they find someone that is a better team player than him, someone that can make our players earn it when they face off in practice, someone that will stay ready even if they go weeks without court time, someone that can take the court on occasion and not embarrass us, I'd be fine with that person too. I don't see anyone else on the roster though that can fill that role better than Ish has unless we see a radical change in Bol's game in the next few days.

 

[Mainstreet]

Nah, wanting him cut isn't really what I'm talking about. To me, Ish is someone that is almost good enough to be in the rotation but isn't and at his age, isn't likely to ever reach that point. So, if you have a better option fine. But I think some here forget or ignore what the role is for the last man or two on the bench.

Biz would be a great choice given that, when he can play, he's far more useful than Ish, Bol or Keon. But unfortunatley he's also far more likely to be unavailable. And he can't give us much of anything in practice because of those knees. And I think the practice squad gets ignored too often when fans talk about filling out a roster.

And as far as giving the spot to a young gun, we just aren't set up to give them regular rotation minutes or aid in their development. I grew up believing that young players shouldn't see the court until they earned it but the past 20 years or so have changed my opinion. Every player turned analyst says the same thing, young players needs to understand their role and have regular rotation minutes. When they aren't in that kind of a situation, they fail. There's no way we can give a project regular minutes and without a G League team, we'd just be setting him up for failure.

So, again, I'm fine with Ish on this roster. If they find someone that is a better team player than him, someone that can make our players earn it when they face off in practice, someone that will stay ready even if they go weeks without court time, someone that can take the court on occasion and not embarrass us, I'd be fine with that person too. I don't see anyone else on the roster though that can fill that role better than Ish has unless we see a radical change in Bol's game in the next few days.

IMO, Ish is nowhere a rotation player. He is a good guy and a team player, but that is where it ends.

 

[Mainstreet]

I’ve never had an eye for Ish. I do not understand why some would…

Ish is a tremendous human being but a marginal NBA player. His stats support the latter.

However, I don't think this enough of a reason for him to occupy a standard 15-man roster spot.

 

[CardNots]

I do. He's a hard nosed, full throttle veteran who works hard in practice, leads the bench cheerleading group, and goes all out when he's on the court during garbage time. For your 15th man, you can't ask for more than that IMO. The problem is, we were so depleted last season that we regularly had him filling the role of a rotation player which is asking a lot of someone who belongs at the end of the bench.

I won't be bothered at all if we release him, I just don't know why getting rid of him seems so important to some here. Usually, your 15th best player is a raw kid that you're developing or a veteran on his last legs. But we aren't set up to develop kids right now. And with so many injury issues on our roster, having someone on the bench like Ish instead of a senior citizen seems like a good thing to me. He can go days or weeks without seeing the court yet still be able to almost impersonate a rotation player when forced into the lineup.

For me, we're probably better off with either someone like Ish or someone like Biyombo. And I'd be fine with either direction. But I look forward to the day when we have a G League team and the coaches on staff that can work with a young player. It's a lot more fun when you have an intriguing project that can enter the game in garbage time.

fair enough

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ish is a tremendous human being but a marginal NBA player. His stats support the latter.

However, I don't think this enough of a reason for him to occupy a standard 15-man roster spot.

I think he's a marginal NBA player too. But IMO that's what rosters are filled out with, glue guys that can play limited minutes while doing everything they can to support the team from the sideline. Look around the league at the worst player on each team, Ish isn't out of line with that group IMO. I won't shed a tear if we find someone else that can give us everything we want from the 15th guy, I just don't expect it to be someone who is so good he needs minutes. That rarely happens IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think he's a marginal NBA player too. But IMO that's what rosters are filled out with, glue guys that can play limited minutes while doing everything they can to support the team from the sideline. Look around the league at the worst player on each team, Ish isn't out of line with that group IMO. I won't shed a tear if we find someone else that can give us everything we want from the 15th guy, I just don't expect it to be someone who is so good he needs minutes. That rarely happens IMO.

You also want these guys at end of bench because you know they’ll go hard in practice which goes at least a little way of trying to keep your superstars sharp.

 

[Chaplin]

I’d seriously like to hear the reasons for keeping a few of the other guys over Ish at this point. We are talking about the 15th spot after all.

 

[Raindog]

I’d seriously like to hear the reasons for keeping a few of the other guys over Ish at this point. We are talking about the 15th spot after all.

I don't agree with Hoop all that often, but I agree that it's probably a better proposition to fill out your bench, even to the last spot, with younger guys who have potential upside (even if it's a shot in the dark) rather than vet JAGs (even if they're good/character guys).

Just for example, would you rather have some likeable but basically useless guy like Pat Burke at your last roster spot... or someone like Toumani Camara? Both are very likely not getting anything but minimal minutes throughout the entirety of the season, but a couple of years of having an actually talented guy like Camara growing, and you may very well end up with a quality rotation player by year 3. And it costs just as much to have Camara in that spot as it does a guy like Burke.. who just by the way, isn't even going to be on the roster three years later.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

As one of those accused of wanting him cut, I take issue with that. I think it's a formality he will be cut and when stating as much I'm genuinely surprised by the pushback. He's nearing 30 and isn't big enough to be a C, quick enough to be a forward, and really doesn't offer any NBA level skill consistently be it shooting, defense, or whatever. Sure, he hit some corner 3's during a stretch but so did Okogie and we saw what he became in the postseason. Ish is the last person we should be counting on when the team has title aspirations. We saw it last year, injuries can pile up and I'd rather the 15th man be a veteran who has shown skill at some point like Biz or be a young guy who might improve, Bol Bol or Keon. So Ish doesn't make sense for this team anymore, IMO. The fact he's been injured and missed most of camp and all of preseason also puts him at a serious disadvantage in terms of developing chemistry and familiarity with others. So I dont see the point in waving anyone who may have disappointed before the guy who has shown nothing.

I agree with all this

 

[Joe Mama]

I don't think Keon Johnson is any more unique or a better prospect than Ish except maybe their age difference. To me this isn't a question of Johnson or Ish. So far from what I've seen in the preseason that seems like kind of a no-brainer to me. S Lee and the other dude… The center are two-way players or I would probably let one of them go. I liked Lee as a prospect last year but he hasn't done anything for me in preseason so far. Unless we are going to cut Damon Lee I'm not sure who the other cut would be if it's not Ish

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't think Keon Johnson is any more unique or a better prospect than Ish except maybe their age difference. To me this isn't a question of Johnson or Ish. So far from what I've seen in the preseason that seems like kind of a no-brainer to me. S Lee and the other dude… The center are two-way players or I would probably let one of them go. I liked Lee as a prospect last year but he hasn't done anything for me in preseason so far. Unless we are going to cut Damon Lee I'm not sure who the other cut would be if it's not Ish

Saban Lee is really bad but he is on a 2 way contract, he doesn't count towards the 15 man limit.

 

[Joe Mama]

Saban Lee is really bad but he is on a 2 way contract, he doesn't count towards the 15 man limit.

Yeah that's what I was trying to say there. I haven't been watching the Second half of these games as closely as when the starters are playing, but I haven't seen one thing to excite me about little yet either.

At some point I'll go watch some video on Ish (in reality this is never going to happen), but my recollection from last season was that he actually moved his feet very well for a guy his size. I remember at least a few times of him jumping out on perimeter players I thought would blow by him and he fared much better than I suspected he would. This could probably be said for an awful lot of players in the G league, international, etc. But I feel like if he could just get consistent from the corner he could actually be a good situational player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If we still had Toumani, he'd easily be my pick for that final roster spot even though I'd worry about giving him enough regular minutes to develop. Since he's gone, I'd hoped that Bol would show us a reason to keep him but that hasn't happened yet. I see no value in Keon (and very little in Damian Lee) so for me right now, it's Ish or sign another guy off the street.

But let's face it, making a mistake with that 15th roster spot is about as trivial an issue as this team will face this season. So, yay for whoever gets it.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah that's what I was trying to say there. I haven't been watching the Second half of these games as closely as when the starters are playing, but I haven't seen one thing to excite me about little yet either.

At some point I'll go watch some video on Ish (in reality this is never going to happen), but my recollection from last season was that he actually moved his feet very well for a guy his size. I remember at least a few times of him jumping out on perimeter players I thought would blow by him and he fared much better than I suspected he would. This could probably be said for an awful lot of players in the G league, international, etc. But I feel like if he could just get consistent from the corner he could actually be a good situational player.

That’s where I’m at. For a 15th man you could do a lot worse than a guy his size that has improved over the course of his time with the team.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think he's a marginal NBA player too. But IMO that's what rosters are filled out with, glue guys that can play limited minutes while doing everything they can to support the team from the sideline. Look around the league at the worst player on each team, Ish isn't out of line with that group IMO. I won't shed a tear if we find someone else that can give us everything we want from the 15th guy, I just don't expect it to be someone who is so good he needs minutes. That rarely happens IMO.

I think the difference is how we look at things. I look for guys on a 15-man roster that can start, be rotation players and playable depth that have specific skills. They all bring something to the table that can help a team win. I'd add developmental players as well that are being groomed for the future but can still play.

The team should be filled with a number of glue guys, not just one, otherwise the roster has the wrong mix of players.

I don't see Ish Wainright bringing much more to the table than a strong work ethic and being a nice guy. That's a lot, but not on the NBA level. The G-Leagues are filled with these players. We are not talking about Udonis Haslem.

 

[CardNots]

I think the difference is how we look at things. I look for guys on a 15-man roster that can start, be rotation players and playable depth that have specific skills. They all bring something to the table that can help a team win. I'd add developmental players as well that are being groomed for the future but can still play.

The team should be filled with a number of glue guys, not just one, otherwise the roster has the wrong mix of players.

I don't see Ish Wainright bringing much more to the table than a strong work ethic and being a nice guy. That's a lot, but not on the NBA level. The G-Leagues are filled with these players. We are not talking about Udonis Haslem.

Never have I seen a suns team as deep as this one. So much focus on the 15th slot…

 

[Chaplin]

I think the difference is how we look at things. I look for guys on a 15-man roster that can start, be rotation players and playable depth that have specific skills. They all bring something to the table that can help a team win. I'd add developmental players as well that are being groomed for the future but can still play.

The team should be filled with a number of glue guys, not just one, otherwise the roster has the wrong mix of players.

I don't see Ish Wainright bringing much more to the table than a strong work ethic and being a nice guy. That's a lot, but not on the NBA level. The G-Leagues are filled with these players. We are not talking about Udonis Haslem.

You’re looking for a 15th man that can start? That says everything we need to know about your side of this discussion.

 

[Mainstreet]

Never have I seen a suns team as deep as this one. So much focus on the 15th slot…

How much did the Suns need another point guard last season in the playoffs?

I look at it as getting the best 15 players on the roster a team can find.

 

[AzStevenCal]

How much did the Suns need another point guard last season in the playoffs?

I look at it as getting the best 15 players on the roster a team can find.

If you can get a starter level player that's willing to sit on the bench for days, weeks, maybe months with nothing but garbage minutes all the while cashing minimum checks, I'm all for it. I just don't believe it's feasible.