The Biggest Loser (of Cardinals training camp)

[Solar7]

Firstly, I'm not questioning your fandom or @Stout or anyone else. Despite @Ouchie-Z-Clown putting words in my mouth. In fact, I like and appreciate all 3 of you. Although I'm not sure how long or recent someone's membership here has a baring on how right or wrong they are.

Like people, fans come in all flavors and there are some here that are relentlessly negative beyond all reason. I've defended and supported you several times on here, but this off season has been tedious.

Not over investing so you are "pleasantly surprised" is a neutral position. That's not what you do. You endlessly complain about everything and telling others how they are wrong to be positive. It's draining.

My point to @Stout was that it's EASY to never put yourself out there except on things everyone agrees on. Hudson was a good signing, "I was happy we drafted Rosen". Next you will be telling me you liked the Nuk and Chandler Jones trades.

But it seem's to me that unless it's a surefire, no brainer positive move you're going to be negative about it, and tell everyone else why they should be negative about it, until proven otherwise.

I have no problem with negative opinions when there are clearly issues that deserve being negative about, but there are also things that could go either way and 100% of the time if it's in the balance you always choose negative.

How about you stick your neck out now and again and say "I think this player/trade/draft pick is going to be good" based on nothing but a little knowledge and some blind faith?

I'll do some now because it does no harm.

I think Jordan Hicks is going to have a better year.
I think Chritian Kirk is a solid WR that can do much more and has been badly used. He will have an ascending year and 850+ yards.
I think Marco Wilson will struggle at first as most rookie CB's do but by year end he will be solidified as the future CB1
I think Zaven, while not in the DROTY conversation, will have a good year with a PFF grade over 65. (Devin White was 51 as a rookie)
I think Robert Alford, if he stays healthy, will be a solid starter. Better than most we had at CB lately. Judging him on his last year at the Falcons is silly.
I think while we likely lose on Sunday I don't think it's as foregone as some think. It will be a close game and come down to a turnover or a single stalled drive either way.

But also I don't think we have more than 7 wins. I don't think Kliff vastly improves and I think next off season we are looking for a new HC, but sadly not GM. I'm playing the odds here more than anything. I do think Kliff his smart, he just hasn't shown much of it in games so far. His NFL career has been much like his college career and I don't see that suddenly changing. His record against winning teams is poor, and I think we play a lot of winning teams this year. And Mikey's arm is too far inside Steve Keim to be detached now.

The only reason I brought up how long we've been here is that you asked if he's ever been positive in 27,000 posts, and it's a weird question to ask when you've only seen some of us darksiders right in the middle of Kliff Kingsbury's tenure. By the time you joined, we'd just endured a 4th place, losing season, right after one of the worst seasons we've ever had. I don't think you're doubting our fandom, but that you haven't been around us long enough to get a real vibe on how we normally treat the team.

There's stuff I'm personally mum on because we're in wait-and-see mode. I think Zaven Collins might end up being pretty good. I've never complained about Jalen Thompson. I'm reluctant to heap any early praise on a guy like Marco Wilson because he's a 4th rounder, but I have some hope he grows into the role.

I've been pretty vocal that I have high hopes for Isaiah Simmons, if you want a "based on faith" piece of praise.

I'm a big fantasy football player, and an adage I like to follow is "What's most likely to happen?" I also work in a pretty statistic-heavy industry that asks the same thing. In both, it's about mitigating risk. We're relying on a lot of older players reclaiming their former glory, alongside coaching that has been poor.

Anyways, I don't see the point in sticking my neck out when my gut and the information around me says "this doesn't look good."

Edit: Sorry, I just saw the calls for the end to the bickering after I finally wrote this post out. I'm happy to stop bickering too.

 

[PACardsFan]

Lol Okay, newcomer. First one that comes to mind is when I was cheer leading Keim--literally proclaiming he had balls of solid rock--when we got Rosen. I loved the pick; one time I really wished I'd been right. But, okay, you also have a really short memory, because I've been all about the Hudson trade.

You should have liked the pick. It was the right move at the time. Unfortunately, Wilks was horrendous & we ended up with the 1st pick. Rosen had some potential, but certainly not enough to pass on Murray. And then again, Murray was the right pick.

 

[CardNots]

Well it’s not about being “right” imo it’s about being accurate. And in my experience those are undertaking analysis and take a position a reasonable position based on that analysis don’t get destroyed like the taken by surprise pollyannas of the world and thus end up far happier in the long run. Not because they are “right,” but because they are better prepared for what is to come. But that’s just my perspective. I’m sure some people can enjoy being Charlie Brown to life’s Lucy. I’d chalk it up to short memories and good medical care.

seriously solid

 

[Solar7]

My 10 year old boy.

I also hate chocolate. Like, can't stand it, wash my mouth out after having a bite hate.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I also hate chocolate. Like, can't stand it, wash my mouth out after having a bite hate.

you belong in a mental institution.

 

[Shane]

you belong in a mental institution.

Facts lol

 

[tnmike]

I bet you really like pie with chocolate though right?

Chocolate Pie....OY

 

[oaken1]

Yeah.... cool yer heels cards fans...
Week 1 starter... good for him, I hope it’s the beginning of an awesome Cardinals career..

but we all know week 1 starter can turn into week 10 bust... so let’s let it play out and see what happens.
Not trying to be a darksider but let’s just let the kid play some football first

 

[oaken1]

I'm not questioning your fandom. Nor have I reframed anything, I asked you if you was ever positive about any move we made and your answer was equivalent to "I like the Nuk trade". Well duh. I was simply giving the opportunity to show you have ever gone out on a limb for anyone, or taken a positive stance in a neutral situation which was the point of my original question.

It's easy to be positive about things that are obviously positive, that doesn't mean people have to be negative about literally everything else.

Watt - too old
Green - old, washed
RB room - crap
Kirk - failure
Wilson - disaster waiting to happen

The truth is all of these situations could go either way, and there are fans that hold a negative view on some and positive on others. Nobody is being a homer and just loving everything.

But there are also some that are negative on all of them, which is just against the odds and speaks of just a generally negative attitude.

Yer new so let me mansplain it for ya.
Most of us have been on this board over twenty years... then over on the cards board for ten years before that.... many, like myself have been following this team since they moved to AZ in 1988.
Many more have been following this team since the seventies... sixties... fifties... nineteen ******* forties... a long ass time.
Imagine if you can pouring your heart into a team for 30....40....50....60 years...60years!! And through it all the team management consistently makes poor decisions... bad draft picks... ****** contracts that hampered the team in free agency... coupled with some of the damndest rotten luck anyone’s ever seen... I mean no **** we once lost a player to injury on the bye...
Imagine an entire life filled with heartbreak and disappointment because the team you love is poorly run and snakebit....
That’s what it is to be an ASFN cards fan.... slowly watching your friends die off without getting to see their team win a championship.
The ill will and negativity are earned... expecting this teams moves to fail is a conditioned response designed to protect the self from disappointment.
Personally I move back and forth between darksider and rose colored glasses...
But I guarantee you this.... there is not a single darksider on this board who doesn’t hope they are miserably wrong... who doesn’t want to be proven wrong over and over...
But 30,40,50,60 years of loving this team has proven that expecting the worst is the safe bet

 

[BritCard]

I also hate chocolate. Like, can't stand it, wash my mouth out after having a bite hate.

Honestly, this explains a lot

 

[BritCard]

Yer new so let me mansplain it for ya.
Most of us have been on this board over twenty years... then over on the cards board for ten years before that.... many, like myself have been following this team since they moved to AZ in 1988.
Many more have been following this team since the seventies... sixties... fifties... nineteen ******* forties... a long ass time.
Imagine if you can pouring your heart into a team for 30....40....50....60 years...60years!! And through it all the team management consistently makes poor decisions... bad draft picks... ****** contracts that hampered the team in free agency... coupled with some of the damndest rotten luck anyone’s ever seen... I mean no **** we once lost a player to injury on the bye...
Imagine an entire life filled with heartbreak and disappointment because the team you love is poorly run and snakebit....
That’s what it is to be an ASFN cards fan.... slowly watching your friends die off without getting to see their team win a championship.
The ill will and negativity are earned... expecting this teams moves to fail is a conditioned response designed to protect the self from disappointment.
Personally I move back and forth between darksider and rose colored glasses...
But I guarantee you this.... there is not a single darksider on this board who doesn’t hope they are miserably wrong... who doesn’t want to be proven wrong over and over...
But 30,40,50,60 years of loving this team has proven that expecting the worst is the safe bet

There are things that are legitimately worth griping about. Kliff, Keim and Bidwill are 3 of them in my opinion. All 3 have been around long enough to show us who they are. I admit that Kliff has room to grow, but he hasn't really shown much in his college or NFL career.

I'm talking about moves that really and truly are in the balance. JJ Watt for example. JJ Watt is one of the best players in the league in the last 10 years. He genuine super star and a great pro. Yet there are those that have complained he's too old, broke down, we paid too much, we need to get younger etc etc rather than just enjoying the potential of watching JJ Watt play for the Cardinals. If you can't get excited by that thought what's the point in being a sports fan?

Same with AJ Green. Yes, he had a poor year last year no doubt. And Ouchie would say it's be "analytical" to predict he's going to be poor or injured. It isn't. It's being negative. Green is a 7 time Pro Bowler. He had an 85 grade in 2018. He has played 88% of career games. Saying "He's just going to be like last year" isn't analytics. Analytics would factor in his career and ability. It would factor in what the coaches and reporters are saying about him in camp. And the conclusion would be that it could go either way. There is at worse a 50/50 chance he has a good year and considering the camp reports I choose as a fan to be positive about it until proven otherwise.

If he fails, well I half expected it, I won't be disappointed. But I least I didn't spend all off season complaining about it. Why choose to feel negative about something that could work out when you can be positive?

There are plenty of fans here, most in fact, that have also been here a long time. Also lived through all those same disappointments over the past 20,30, 40 years. Yet they remain positive until proven otherwise. If you can't be positive in preseason when anything is possible when can you? Preseason is as good as it gets most of the time as a Cards fan.

 

[Stout]

There are things that are legitimately worth griping about. Kliff, Keim and Bidwill are 3 of them in my opinion. All 3 have been around long enough to show us who they are. I admit that Kliff has room to grow, but he hasn't really shown much in his college or NFL career.

I'm talking about moves that really and truly are in the balance. JJ Watt for example. JJ Watt is one of the best players in the league in the last 10 years. He genuine super star and a great pro. Yet there are those that have complained he's too old, broke down, we paid too much, we need to get younger etc etc rather than just enjoying the potential of watching JJ Watt play for the Cardinals. If you can't get excited by that thought what's the point in being a sports fan?

Same with AJ Green. Yes, he had a poor year last year no doubt. And Ouchie would say it's be "analytical" to predict he's going to be poor or injured. It isn't. It's being negative. Green is a 7 time Pro Bowler. He had an 85 grade in 2018. He has played 88% of career games. Saying "He's just going to be like last year" isn't analytics. Analytics would factor in his career and ability. It would factor in what the coaches and reporters are saying about him in camp. And the conclusion would be that it could go either way. There is at worse a 50/50 chance he has a good year and considering the camp reports I choose as a fan to be positive about it until proven otherwise.

If he fails, well I half expected it, I won't be disappointed. But I least I didn't spend all off season complaining about it. Why choose to feel negative about something that could work out when you can be positive?

There are plenty of fans here, most in fact, that have also been here a long time. Also lived through all those same disappointments over the past 20,30, 40 years. Yet they remain positive until proven otherwise. If you can't be positive in preseason when anything is possible when can you? Preseason is as good as it gets most of the time as a Cards fan.

In other words, no, we can't return to football talk. You have to be right, daggum it. And you've really shown your rationale, too--share your completely and 100 percent personal opinion and agenda or else. GOTCHA.

If we sign Fitz, I fully expect you to be 100 percent stoked about it because of all the past glory he's accumulated, or else you're just being negative! Neener neener, I said it so it is so! See, I can use the same flawed logic.

 

[BritCard]

In other words, no, we can't return to football talk. You have to be right, daggum it. And you've really shown your rationale, too--share your completely and 100 percent personal opinion and agenda or else. GOTCHA.

If we sign Fitz, I fully expect you to be 100 percent stoked about it because of all the past glory he's accumulated, or else you're just being negative! Neener neener, I said it so it is so! See, I can use the same flawed logic.

LOL dude. I'M the one trying to be right? There's like 9 posts on this from you, Solar and Ouchie since my last and its me. Sure.

Oh and no, I wouldn't complain about the greatest ever player this franchise has had coming back. Considering the player likely to make way is Antoine Wesley. Why would anybody?

 

[Stout]

LOL dude. I'M the one trying to be right? There's like 9 posts on this from you, Solar and Ouchie since my last and its me. Sure.

Oh and no, I wouldn't complain about the greatest ever player this franchise has had coming back. Considering the player likely to make way is Antoine Wesley. Why would anybody?

So you're not the one who initiated it? Okay, if you say so. If you want to let it die, let it die. I tried a bazillion posts ago, but you had to "clarify" more. You can then stop trying to clarify your comments about my fandom, or fan outlook, or my weltanschauung, or whatever, and get back to football convo, right?

 

[Zeem_Freeze]

death, taxes, and derailed threads.

 

[Red Bird]

I'm late to the party on this thread and I'm just laughing hysterically considering how this has played out lmao

 

[Finito]

Yer new so let me mansplain it for ya.
Most of us have been on this board over twenty years... then over on the cards board for ten years before that.... many, like myself have been following this team since they moved to AZ in 1988.
Many more have been following this team since the seventies... sixties... fifties... nineteen ******* forties... a long ass time.
Imagine if you can pouring your heart into a team for 30....40....50....60 years...60years!! And through it all the team management consistently makes poor decisions... bad draft picks... ****** contracts that hampered the team in free agency... coupled with some of the damndest rotten luck anyone’s ever seen... I mean no **** we once lost a player to injury on the bye...
Imagine an entire life filled with heartbreak and disappointment because the team you love is poorly run and snakebit....
That’s what it is to be an ASFN cards fan.... slowly watching your friends die off without getting to see their team win a championship.
The ill will and negativity are earned... expecting this teams moves to fail is a conditioned response designed to protect the self from disappointment.
Personally I move back and forth between darksider and rose colored glasses...
But I guarantee you this.... there is not a single darksider on this board who doesn’t hope they are miserably wrong... who doesn’t want to be proven wrong over and over...
But 30,40,50,60 years of loving this team has proven that expecting the worst is the safe bet

eh idk about that. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think internet message boards were a thing in 1990

 

[Solar7]

eh idk about that. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think internet message boards were a thing in 1990

They most definitely were. Usenet was established in 1980 and was one of the first existing functions of the internet as we know it, and essentially just a series of BBS's/message boards.

 

[Finito]

They most definitely were. Usenet was established in 1980 and was one of the first existing functions of the internet as we know it, and essentially just a series of BBS's/message boards.

ok yes technically but as we know them now they absolutely were not and that’s not even talking about who had access to that stuff in 1990.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yer new so let me mansplain it for ya.
Most of us have been on this board over twenty years... then over on the cards board for ten years before that.... many, like myself have been following this team since they moved to AZ in 1988.
Many more have been following this team since the seventies... sixties... fifties... nineteen ******* forties... a long ass time.
Imagine if you can pouring your heart into a team for 30....40....50....60 years...60years!! And through it all the team management consistently makes poor decisions... bad draft picks... ****** contracts that hampered the team in free agency... coupled with some of the damndest rotten luck anyone’s ever seen... I mean no **** we once lost a player to injury on the bye...
Imagine an entire life filled with heartbreak and disappointment because the team you love is poorly run and snakebit....
That’s what it is to be an ASFN cards fan.... slowly watching your friends die off without getting to see their team win a championship.
The ill will and negativity are earned... expecting this teams moves to fail is a conditioned response designed to protect the self from disappointment.
Personally I move back and forth between darksider and rose colored glasses...
But I guarantee you this.... there is not a single darksider on this board who doesn’t hope they are miserably wrong... who doesn’t want to be proven wrong over and over...
But 30,40,50,60 years of loving this team has proven that expecting the worst is the safe bet

Man did this statement hit home:

“slowly watching your friends die off without getting to see their team win a championship”

made me think about a lot of our fallen posters.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There are things that are legitimately worth griping about. Kliff, Keim and Bidwill are 3 of them in my opinion. All 3 have been around long enough to show us who they are. I admit that Kliff has room to grow, but he hasn't really shown much in his college or NFL career.

I'm talking about moves that really and truly are in the balance. JJ Watt for example. JJ Watt is one of the best players in the league in the last 10 years. He genuine super star and a great pro. Yet there are those that have complained he's too old, broke down, we paid too much, we need to get younger etc etc rather than just enjoying the potential of watching JJ Watt play for the Cardinals. If you can't get excited by that thought what's the point in being a sports fan?

Same with AJ Green. Yes, he had a poor year last year no doubt. And Ouchie would say it's be "analytical" to predict he's going to be poor or injured. It isn't. It's being negative. Green is a 7 time Pro Bowler. He had an 85 grade in 2018. He has played 88% of career games. Saying "He's just going to be like last year" isn't analytics. Analytics would factor in his career and ability. It would factor in what the coaches and reporters are saying about him in camp. And the conclusion would be that it could go either way. There is at worse a 50/50 chance he has a good year and considering the camp reports I choose as a fan to be positive about it until proven otherwise.

If he fails, well I half expected it, I won't be disappointed. But I least I didn't spend all off season complaining about it. Why choose to feel negative about something that could work out when you can be positive?

There are plenty of fans here, most in fact, that have also been here a long time. Also lived through all those same disappointments over the past 20,30, 40 years. Yet they remain positive until proven otherwise. If you can't be positive in preseason when anything is possible when can you? Preseason is as good as it gets most of the time as a Cards fan.

Lol your hyperbole about other posters is so draining.

my analysis is yeah he was a pro bowler when he was younger and the last tune was 2018. It’s 2021. That’s a lot of time. And in those most recent years (note, not just last year and you keep stating and I keep correcting) he’s been injured or had a down year. THREE YEARS. Do I ignore the reports from camp? No. I mean I drafted him in the last round of my fantasy draft on a flier. But when your three most recent seasons have been down seasons someone can’t possibly reasonably argue it’s more likely he turns in a pro bowl season - which keeps getting touted- at post age 30 - than it is for the current streak to continue. That’s not analysis, that’s hope. And guess what, I hope your hope comes to fruition. But my brain says it’s less likely than not.

 

[Solar7]

ok yes technically but as we know them now they absolutely were not and that’s not even talking about who had access to that stuff in 1990.

That's a very weird assertion given that the origins of this board date back to AZProSports, which was around in the 90s, and some of the posters came from CardsCorner on AOL before that. Maybe it didn't date all the back to 1990, but you're splitting hairs by a few years, and that's just our own community.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lol your hyperbole about other posters is so draining.

my analysis is yeah he was a pro bowler when he was younger and the last tune was 2018. It’s 2021. That’s a lot of time. And in those most recent years (note, not just last year and you keep stating and I keep correcting) he’s been injured or had a down year. THREE YEARS. Do I ignore the reports from camp? No. I mean I drafted him in the last round of my fantasy draft on a flier. But when your three most recent seasons have been down seasons someone can’t possibly reasonably argue it’s more likely he turns in a pro bowl season - which keeps getting touted- at post age 30 - than it is for the current streak to continue. That’s not analysis, that’s hope. And guess what, I hope your hope comes to fruition. But my brain says it’s less likely than not.

Apologies to everyone for breathing more life into this non-ending merry-go-round.

 

[BritCard]

Lol your hyperbole about other posters is so draining.

my analysis is yeah he was a pro bowler when he was younger and the last tune was 2018. It’s 2021. That’s a lot of time. And in those most recent years (note, not just last year and you keep stating and I keep correcting) he’s been injured or had a down year. THREE YEARS. Do I ignore the reports from camp? No. I mean I drafted him in the last round of my fantasy draft on a flier. But when your three most recent seasons have been down seasons someone can’t possibly reasonably argue it’s more likely he turns in a pro bowl season - which keeps getting touted- at post age 30 - than it is for the current streak to continue. That’s not analysis, that’s hope. And guess what, I hope your hope comes to fruition. But my brain says it’s less likely than not.

Who is saying he's having a pro bowl season and where does it keep getting touted?

Its a false dichotomy to say "the choice is trash or pro bowl so I choose trash".

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Who is saying he's having a pro bowl season and where does it keep getting touted?

Its a false dichotomy to say "the choice is trash or pro bowl so I choose trash".

You keep rolling out his pro bowls as proof of what play we should expect out of him this year. Even if it’s not pro bowl expectations I’m trying to explain that my perspective is pro bowls three years ago just don’t hold as much water to me compared to the actual prior three years of injuries and mediocrity. That’s it. End of statement. Seems reasonable.