The merged "Suspension" thread

[Cheesebeef]

That is absolutely right. The problem is that the media seems to be implying that Boris and Amare moved towards the "altercation" with the intention of escalating it. How is that even provable?

it doesn't mean to be. that's the problem with the rule.

 

[Chaplin]

it doesn't mean to be. that's the problem with the rule.

Now the integrity of the league is at stake. If they suspend them, the evidence is flimsy enough that it will be a much-debated topic. If they don't, then the city of San Antonio will go nuts.

It's almost a lose-lose for the league however they vote. And all because Robert Horry couldn't wrap up Steve Nash in a bear hug.

 

[D-Dogg]

WHY is a Laker fan even discussing this? You're obviously biased against the Suns, so I think you should just sit this one out.

Yeah, you are obviously biased in your idea of what I think. And wrong. Guess what...as much as you'd love to have a rivalry with the Lakers...I have a lot more dislike for the Spurs than for the Suns. They have actually beat us when it mattered, when we could have won a title. They beat us at Staples while I sat in the stands watching. I detest the Spurs. So when Suns meet Spurs, I cheer for the Suns.

I'd love for the suns to win a title this year, so at least we'd have lost to the eventual champion. Ever heard of that? I don't think you can, but I'm pulling for you. Oh, and check the game thread, where all the Suns fans were whining about being down 3-1 and I said "are you really giving up? You are just down five with a ton of time left..." Maybe you don't know what you are talking about..I'll give you that bennie of the doubt.

I think you should probably sit this one out if you view what Amare did and think there is a question of whether he even left the freaking bench....wow.

And don't be so naive. I don't think he was just "checking in". I happen to think that yes, the plan WAS for him to check in, but when Nash went flying to the boards, Amare was a man and wanted to check on his floor general and the most important man on the floor who was blatantly checked into the boards.

And by rule, suspended for that action. As much of a man as he is, and as much as I personally think the rule is stupid, leaving the bench = automatic suspension. Heat vs. Knicks used to be good for one fight, and multiple suspensions per series.

But hey, since you don't think he's "checking in", perhaps you think he was trying to jump in and throw a punch at Horry.

Irrelevant, leaving the bench = suspension.

Or maybe he wanted to knock Horry down and stare down at him between his legs.

Irrelevant, leaving the bench = suspension.

Great logic there, and something Laker fans would know something about.

Irrelevant, this is Spurs/Suns, not Lakers/Suns. But it's good to know you are still thinking about last season.

 

[azirish]

Listen, there's no question the guys got up, but did they REALLY leave the bench? Or the bench area? I don't think they did.

After watching the replays, it seems like there were a couple different steps. First, Amare and Boris went out onto the court to see what happened to Nash and then went back off the court. Then Amare tried to go toward Nash and was stopped by Ivaroni, which was somewhat beyond the bench area but not on floor.

The clock was stopped and it's not illegal to be on the floor. It's not obvious that Amare could see what happened to Horry or tell if there was any kind of confrontation without going onto the floor. He retreated immediately off the floor, so that part of the process was perhaps unwise but not really a chargable offense. His moving away from the bench area is more serious, but the issue seems to be whether Ivaroni was trying to stop him from joining a fight or stop him from "appearing" to be joining a fight.

The Suns claimed Amare was just getting ready to go back in, but it doesn't look like that with Ivaroni holding him back. But did Amare think there was a fight going on? Ivaroni was concerned enough that he felt it prudent that Amare be held back, but that does not prove Amare was joining a fight.

I'm sure that Spurs fans see it differently, but ultimately it will depend on whether this is viewed as a fight since Bell threw no punches. (He was given a technical for getting into Horry's face, but stayed in the game). Ironically, the only way it could be viewed as a fight is that Horry threw an elbow. But these are the Spurs, they do that all the time.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm hoping they won't suspend the players, but this is a rule that has ALWAYS been letter of the law.

Of course this incident probably causes the greatest swing of power if it is enforced...

I'm sure that the league is worried about the precedent of letting Amare/Diaw play will set. Not just for the rest of the playoffs, but from now on they will have to more open minded on these decisions.

Let's see...

Knee to the groin? Flagrant 1, no suspension.
Kick to the Achilles? Nothing.

Getting up to check on a teammate who got hip-checked into the boards? Suspension.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Now the integrity of the league is at stake. If they suspend them, the evidence is flimsy enough that it will be a much-debated topic. If they don't, then the city of San Antonio will go nuts.

It's almost a lose-lose for the league however they vote. And all because Robert Horry couldn't wrap up Steve Nash in a bear hug.

yup - a really crappy way to end a great game which set the stage for a MONSTROUS finish. Damn, if only Finley had been able to wrap Nash up a couple seconds earlier, we wouldn't have to worry about this crap.

 

[Gee!]

Amaré, Diaw could be suspended
Doug Haller
The Arizona republic
May. 15, 2007 12:06 AM

SAN ANTONIO – The Suns got to enjoy Game 4’s comeback 104-98 win for about 10 minutes before their attention turned to other matters.

The big question: Will they have Amare Stoudemire and Boris Diaw for Wednesday’s Game 5 in Phoenix?

Television replays showed Stoudemire and Diaw leaving the bench after Spurs forward Robert Horry fouled Steve Nash hard in the closing seconds at the AT&T Center.

After the game, Stoudemire and Diaw watched replays in an office inside the Suns locker room, trying to figure out what had happened.

“You know what? Let me enjoy this for about an hour,’’ Suns coach Mike D’Antoni said when asked about Stoudemire and Diaw’s availability. “I’m just happy to go home (with the series tied) 2-2. We’ll toss it up and play with what we got and try to have the same desperation. I’m not going to worry about it right now.”

With the Suns leading 100-97, Spurs guard Manu Ginobili missed a layup. Suns guard Leandro Barbosa grabbed the rebound. Nash took off down the right side.

“I was trying to skate between him and the boards and he got me with a nice hip check,’’ Nash said, using a hockey reference. “What can I say? It was a pretty nice check.”

D’Antoni rushed over to his point guard. Raja Bell approached Horry, and Nash got up and charged the Spurs forward as well. Stoudemire and Diaw appeared to leave the bench during the scuffle. No punches were thrown.

Horry received a flagrant foul type 2 and was ejected. Bell received a technical foul. Horry left the AT&T Center without taking to reporters after the game.

“You got to stand up for yourself sometimes,’’ Nash said. “I know you got to roll with the punches, literally, a lot of the time, but I felt like that was a little uncalled for. And it’s hard to not, I guess, always take the high road and always turn the other cheek. I knew he was going to foul me. I just didn’t know it was going to be of that variety.”

Bruce Bowen had kneed Nash in the groin in Game 3. The NBA reviewed the play, upgrading it to a flagrant foul, but decided that no fine or suspension was necessary. After Game 3, a Suns loss, Nash said the game’s physical element was great, and “that’s the way it’s supposed to be.”

He had a change of heart in Game 4.

“At what point is enough enough?’’ Nash said. “And at what point are you supposed to take offense? The league has made it very difficult nowadays to stand up for yourself. It’s their job, but at the same time their opinion does not always coincide with yours. It’s difficult, and I’m not really sure what the answer is.”

NBA rules state that during an altercation, “all players not participating in the game must remain in the immediate vicinity of their bench. Violators will be suspended, without pay, for a minimum of one game and fined up to $35,000. The suspensions will commence prior to the start of their next game."

Stoudemire, who led the Suns with 26 points, claimed he was trying to check into the game at the time of Horry’s foul, and that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

“I was actually coming up on (the foul,)’’ he said. “I was kind of right behind it, going toward the scorer’s table. Then it all happened.”

As officials sorted out everything, Stoudemire turned toward the crowd and chanted “Dirty! Dirty!” He had called the Spurs a dirty team earlier this series and San Antonio fans serenaded him with the chant during Games 3 and 4.

Fans behind the Suns bench screamed at D’Antoni as well. D’Antoni jawed back, but maintained his composure.

“I think the issue that should be dealt with is Robert Horry and what he did,’’ Suns Chairman Jerry Colangelo said in the Suns locker room. “That caused the whole problem.”

Nash tried to downplay Stoudemire and Diaw’s involvement.

“First of all, that would be terrible if that silly play at the end of the game, when the game is really over, causes a detriment to the rest of the series,’’ he said. “Second of all, there wasn’t a fight. It wasn’t like guys left the bench to enter the fight. So I don’t see what, in the big picture, the deal is.

“If you want to be technical about it, guys are on the court the whole game, cheering at one time or another, and they’re over the (end) line. If someone’s not throwing a punch or someone doesn’t run out there to enter a fight, I think it’s a moot point.”

The Spurs didn’t have much to say about the incident. Tim Duncan left without talking to reporters. Asked if he had talked to Horry, Manu Ginobili said, “No. We were all pretty upset so there was not many words in the locker room.”

Said Bowen: “In these situations emotions get really high and it’s really intense. (Horry’s) a veteran and there are things that you wish you can take back, but in the heat of the battle, it’s hard to control those emotions.”

The Suns will practice around noon today in Phoenix. By then, they should know the fate of Diaw, Stoudemire and any other reserve that left the bench.

Stoudemire, who has battled recent foul trouble, averages 23.5 points and 10.3 rebounds against the Spurs. Diaw, known for his playmaking skills, is one of the team’s top reserves.

Stoudemire said he expects to play Wednesday, but he didn’t sound confident.

“I guess I got to say my prayers tonight,’’ he said.

 

[Chaplin]

After watching the replays, it seems like there were a couple different steps. First, Amare and Boris went out onto the court to see what happened to Nash and then went back off the court. Then Amare tried to go toward Nash and was stopped by Ivaroni, which was somewhat beyond the bench area but not on floor.

The clock was stopped and it's not illegal to be on the floor. It's not obvious that Amare could see what happened to Horry or tell if there was any kind of confrontation without going onto the floor. He retreated immediately off the floor, so that part of the process was perhaps unwise but not really a chargable offense. His moving away from the bench area is more serious, but the issue seems to be whether Ivaroni was trying to stop him from joining a fight or stop him from "appearing" to be joining a fight.

The Suns claimed Amare was just getting ready to go back in, but it doesn't look like that with Ivaroni holding him back. But did Amare think there was a fight going on? Ivaroni was concerned enough that he felt it prudent that Amare be held back, but that does not prove Amare was joining a fight.

I'm sure that Spurs fans see it differently, but ultimately it will depend on whether this is viewed as a fight since Bell threw no punches. (He was given a technical for getting into Horry's face, but stayed in the game). Ironically, the only way it could be viewed as a fight is that Horry threw an elbow. But these are the Spurs, they do that all the time.

I think the whole thing about Amare wanting to check in was more in explanation of why he was standing up in the first place. Moving toward Nash who is down on the ground just to "check in" is asinine. No wonder Mike D was chuckling at that. There is no question that Amare was concerned about Nash at that point. But did he leave the bench, if he was already standing and making his way over to be substituted before the hip check occurred? That I think is what the league will look at in regards to Amare.

Boris might be another matter, but it's not like he's known to be an enforcer. If anything, we should be happy he showed some aggressiveness there.

 

[D-Dogg]

And this post is bitter Laker fan homerism.

Wrong chap...see my post on the other thread.

The insane homerism is that you would think I give a crap about the Suns...I'd rather see them beat the Spurs. I think they will lose, but I'd rather like them to win.

Your myopic view of the situation is amazing...I really thought you to be more level-headed than this, but whatever I guess. There are opinions, and there are facts. Multiple replays showed Amare waaay inside the court area, far from scorers table, and then very roughly shoved back to the bench by more than one coach. Yeah, that's "checking in."

It's a suspendable act...deal with it. Them's the rules...sucks that Amare made a young guy mistake, but he did. That's the cold, hard fact.

 

[jbeecham]

I don't think anyone would've blamed Amare for wanting to go out onto the court. Nash was just wiped on on a blatantly intentional hard foul into the scorers table. Bell tries to stick up for him and gets an elbow in the face and then gets surrounded by the 5 Spurs players on the court with Duncan grabbing and pulling him. Also, the camera pans to the Spurs bench very late, but you still see the feet of Spurs bench players on the court and assistant coaches pushing the back to the bench.

 

[Gee!]

Multiple replays showed Amare waaay inside the court area, far from scorers table, and then very roughly shoved back to the bench by more than one coach. Yeah, that's "checking in."

Well I guess you can argue that Amare was checking in then the coaches thought to pull him back till everything was cleared up so there would no question of him trying to start a fight..

 

[D-Dogg]

[Fans behind the Suns bench screamed at D’Antoni as well. D’Antoni jawed back, but maintained his composure.

Really? How do you "maintain your composure" while jawing with fans as a head coach of an NBA franchise? Seriously...that is just....odd.

 

[D-Dogg]

Well I guess you can argue that Amare was checking in then the coaches thought to pull him back till everything was cleared up so there would no question of him trying to start a fight..

I think the argument is better that Amare is such a beast of contained rage that he gets incredibly hyped up to check in, and if delayed he must be restrained by the coaching staff.

That's much more in line with Amare's mindset...and that's a compliment.

 

[Gee!]

Really? How do you "maintain your composure" while jawing with fans as a head coach of an NBA franchise? Seriously...that is just....odd.

Why is this odd to you? I dont think its odd at all.. Youve never cussed someone out without losing your cool? Say your building something with a crew.. Your hammering away looking at what your doing yet still cussing another guy out without even looking at him...

 

[HooverDam]

Really? How do you "maintain your composure" while jawing with fans as a head coach of an NBA franchise? Seriously...that is just....odd.

Well he probably just said "shut up" or some such thing. Who knows what kind of awfully obscene things the fans were shouting at him. He could've said all sorts of horrible things back, but instead made a quick comment and moved on, I think thats 'maintaining your composure"

 

[D-Dogg]

Why is this odd to you? I dont think its odd at all.. Youve never cussed someone out without losing your cool? Say your building something with a crew.. Your hammering away looking at what your doing yet still cussing another guy out without even looking at him...

I'm not an NBA head coach, making millions and trying to coach my team past one of the best teams in the league en route to what would be a title if we won the series. If I got sidetracked into fan yelling nonsense, then yeah, I think that would be borderline ridiculous. Dude is heckled all the time...does he REALLY respond?

Gee, I know you...you know me...if we could get under say...Mike Nolan's skin and get him responding to our trash we threw at him wouldn't we be giddy because we had him talking to us and not focusing on his team? You know the answer to that.

Mikey D seems to be really on edge during this series...

 

[HooverDam]

It's funny to see how some of you are looking for ways your guy can be ok even though he broke the rules..you would be HOPPING mad if it was Duncan that did that and calling for his head.

Actually, no I wouldn't. In fact, I wouldn't have cared if the entire Spurs bench got onto the court, all collectively grabbed their crotches and made lewd gestures at the Suns, or whatever. If they didn't join the fight (which Amare and Diaw didn't), they shouldn't be suspended. I believe more in the spirit of the law, than the letter of the law.

 

[CardShark]

I don't think Amare, Diaw, Nash or Bell should be suspended because this was a direct reaction of the league not having the balls to stand up and nip this "rough style of play" in the bud. NIP IT IN THE BUD! They dropped the bal, in particular in game 3. The reason I include Nash and Bell in this, is they both took a shot at Horry.

 

[KofaKing85]

The stupidity of youth. This is gonna go against the suns because there ain't any other way to legislate it. The truth of the matter is it like LaDanian Tomlinson going off against the patriots. No one got suspended or fined, but there aren't really any rules in the NFL like that AFTER the game.
During the game however is when diaw and amare became impetuous and that is why their exuberance is going to cost phoenix. That's really too bad because it was a Spurs type of game and the calls weren't helping San Antonio so the refs had a win gift wrapped for the suns and these two guys are gonna return the favor and cost the suns yet another trip to the finals...

 

[Griffin]

There are opinions, and there are facts. Multiple replays showed Amare waaay inside the court area, far from scorers table, and then very roughly shoved back to the bench by more than one coach. Yeah, that's "checking in."

I think everyone knows that "checking in" was just an excuse, and a poor one at that. And no one is seriously debating whether or not Amare and Boris actually left the bench area. But as has been pointed out, both Amare and Diaw started running toward Nash as soon as the foul occurred. At that time, Horry was walking away and Nash was down on the ground. There is no rule that says you cannot leave the bench area in order to assist your teammate if you think he might be hurt. This is not an excuse; that's what the video shows. Then Nash started getting up and Bell got involved. At that time both Amare and Diaw were already half-way there and as soon as the coaches realized what was happening they started to push them back. Imo, there was no intent on the part of Amare and Boris to get involved other than to see if Nash was ok, because there was nothing to get involved in yet. Do you really think they were trying to start a fight?

 

[KofaKing85]

Guys, I wanted the teams to be at full strength, but c'mon. amare and boris were checking on hockey tough stevie? That's a trainer's and a coach's job.
They didn't even try to kneel by stevie and your retort might be because steve got up before they could get there. Still, If they didn't leave the bench, we wouldn't be having this discussion as it is stated in the rule.
It didn't matter that neither of them went to start a fight. An "altercation" was already happening.
No Spurs players left the bench and that right now is why the suns don't get what it takes to get to a championship.
Goon up or whatever and take out Duncan will only result in Duncan getting hurt, or more scary, pissed off, and a suns player facing a serious suspension.
I think back in the day, David Robinson was elbowed hard by karl malone and no Spurs came to David's aid. It seemed strange, but I hear Popovich being a military guy, adheres to the chain of command that is the Commissioner's office. As for David Robinson's revenge for the elbow, karl still has no rings...

 

[KofaKing85]

yup - a really crappy way to end a great game which set the stage for a MONSTROUS finish. Damn, if only Finley had been able to wrap Nash up a couple seconds earlier, we wouldn't have to worry about this crap.

No. There would be no worry if stoudemire and diaw DIDN'T LEAVE the frickin' bench. Just call it like it is. Yeah, it sucks, but knowing those things are what makes a champion. Knowing what to do and more importantly what not to do.

The rule was created because of a suns player (kj), barkley, as a sun, had it happen to him. That rule is pretty clear, and because of this substitution excuse, the league is going to close that loophole in the future.

Blame Robert Horry? Absolutely! But will losing him cost the Spurs the series? Most likely not, but do the suns need amare and his backup, boris?

That is why I am saying that champions know what to do... Dirty or not...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

No. There would be no worry if stoudemire and diaw DIDN'T LEAVE the frickin' bench. Just call it like it is. Yeah, it sucks, but knowing those things are what makes a champion. Knowing what to do and more importantly what not to do.

The rule was created because of a suns player (kj), barkley, as a sun, had it happen to him. That rule is pretty clear, and because of this substitution excuse, the league is going to close that loophole in the future.

Blame Robert Horry? Absolutely! But will losing him cost the Spurs the series? Most likely not, but do the suns need amare and his backup, boris?

That is why I am saying that champions know what to do... Dirty or not...

Oh get off your high horse. "What it takes to be a champion." See ya.

 

[D-Dogg]

And no one is seriously debating whether or not Amare and Boris actually left the bench area. ?

I think Chap is, if I'm not mistaken.

Imo, there was no intent on the part of Amare and Boris to get involved other than to see if Nash was ok, because there was nothing to get involved in yet. Do you really think they were trying to start a fight

By that time, Nash had already got up off the floor and shoved Horry himself...he didn't lay there so they weren't going to see if he was ok...Nash was pushing, Raja was pushing and they were coming to aid of their teammates in case something bigger went down.

Come on guys, it's pretty clear...I don't even fault Amare for it because I'd do the same. It's human nature...it is just that the NBA has this pretty strict rule that if you aren't in the game, you have to stay on the bench...that way fights are just max 5 on 5 and not 11 on 11.

 

[Griffin]

By that time, Nash had already got up off the floor and shoved Horry himself...he didn't lay there so they weren't going to see if he was ok...

Again, I believe that when the actual altercation started, Amare and Boris have already left the bench area and were heading towards Nash. I am not sure however that it will matter in the eyes of the league, since it all happened rather fast.

At this point I feel like we're beating a dead horse, so let's just wait for the official word form the league office.