Trade talks & rumors

Mainstreet

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None of this changes the calendar. It's absurd to call him out for not making a big trade 18 months ago given that he had just been hired and we had almost nothing to work with. That aside, ask around the league and I'm quite sure they'll tell you that the trade for Bledsoe WAS a big trade.

I think it's great that you've had the fortune to lead men and women but having spent most of my life in a leadership position I can tell you that people on the outside rarely have a clue of the true picture. I find it incredible that you and BC aren't just predicting bad things in the future for this franchise, you're already condemning this Front Office for things that haven't happened yet. I really hope that if this team ever meets your satisfaction that you guys will support them with a fraction of the zeal you've exhibited while tearing them down.

Steve

I agree that trading for Bledsoe was a big trade not to mention the Scola trade. As I view it, McDonough has put the Suns in position to make a major trade realistic with draft picks and marketable players. I can't believe McDonough got a taker for Anthony Tolliver. He has proven again he knows how to wheel and deal even on a mistake.
 

Mainstreet

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I'm pretty sure Mark West knows how to teach big men how to play the game correctly...

The trouble is, Mark West would also teach them how to be a foul magnet. ;)
 

JCSunsfan

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As a leader, I don't buy that argument. What one inherits can only be a valid excuse for a short period of time. At some point, what you have is your responsibility. I think it's been long enough since McD took over to hold him accountable for the status of HIS team.

If I went to my boss and said, "Well, look at the team I inherited a year and a half ago", my boss would be very disappointed in me. He cleaned up Blanks' crap, drafted pretty well, acquired some decent contracts and more than likely cost us our best player leaving next summer due to how he handled Bledsoe and IT situations. It's time he is held accountable for his actions. Full year and a half is a longer honeymoon than any manager gets.

This is hilarious. 18 months ago typical Suns fans were talking about a 5 year rebuild. They now have a multitude of assets, a winning season, an above .500 record, and a bright future and all of a sudden time is up. McD has been on the job for 18 months and has done more than anyone could have imagined in that time.

These expectations are silly.
 

SirStefan32

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None of this changes the calendar. It's absurd to call him out for not making a big trade 18 months ago given that he had just been hired and we had almost nothing to work with. That aside, ask around the league and I'm quite sure they'll tell you that the trade for Bledsoe WAS a big trade.

I think it's great that you've had the fortune to lead men and women but having spent most of my life in a leadership position I can tell you that people on the outside rarely have a clue of the true picture. I find it incredible that you and BC aren't just predicting bad things in the future for this franchise, you're already condemning this Front Office for things that haven't happened yet. I really hope that if this team ever meets your satisfaction that you guys will support them with a fraction of the zeal you've exhibited while tearing them down.

Steve

No doubt. I am sure that McD, babby, Sarver, and Hornacek have a game plan. Whether it's a good plan or a bad one remains to be seen. All we can do is speculate. What looks like a good move now may be a terrible move, and what looks like a crappy move (Overpaying Bledsoe, signing IT) may turn out to be great. I am not condemning anything. I am expressing concerns over three point guards and losing Dragic next summer due to him being forced to be the third option behind two inferior players.

If they flip Bledsoe and IT for a legitimate starting PF, a real shooting guard, and a backup big man, I will be very happy. Cannot tell you badly I want to be wrong. I promise you that my love for the Suns is far greater than my desire to be right.

My point is that the Suns have regressed, and this "accumulation of assets to make a trade" narrative is getting old. At some point we have to judge a leader based on the available results.
 

SirStefan32

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This is hilarious. 18 months ago typical Suns fans were talking about a 5 year rebuild. They now have a multitude of assets, a winning season, an above .500 record, and a bright future and all of a sudden time is up. McD has been on the job for 18 months and has done more than anyone could have imagined in that time.

These expectations are silly.

Right, exactly- we were talking about proper rebuilding or rebuilding the right way instead of half-assing it, and retooling quickly to make playoffs. In other words, I would rather suck for 5 years and THEN be an actual contender than just miss playoffs for two years, then make playoffs for two years and be in the same crappy situation again.

"Time is up" is just not an accurate representation of what I am saying. I am not saying the time is up, but I am saying that the leadership needs to be held accountable. You can't say, "We'll trade for a star" and ride that crap indefinitely.
 

devilalum

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More than a little unfair don't you think? When was McDonough hired and what did he inherit?

Steve

I'm thinking about the interview he gave where he said he was stockpiling assets to trade for a legit star.

I'm not saying he hasn't done anything.
 

BC867

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I find it incredible that you and BC aren't just predicting bad things in the future for this franchise, you're already condemning this Front Office for things that haven't happened yet.
But things have happened. We have an unbalanced roster. An unhappy former lead Point Guard. A PF/closing C who describes himself as undersized and has requested our Guards to cover the slack of rebounding. And a local Press who points out how weak it has been.

I really hope that if this team ever meets your satisfaction that you guys will support them with a fraction of the zeal you've exhibited while tearing them down.
As you once told me, I am surprised by that sarcastic comment (which we both hate).

I support the Suns now, as I always have, despite their turning a 2-lead Point Guard gimmick into a 3-lead Point Guard gimmick and then trying to execute that with added players without the skills to pull it off.

You know very well that Stefan and I would be euphoric if the Suns ever step up to a power game and show improvement every year.
 

Mainstreet

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Right, exactly- we were talking about proper rebuilding or rebuilding the right way instead of half-assing it, and retooling quickly to make playoffs. In other words, I would rather suck for 5 years and THEN be an actual contender than just miss playoffs for two years, then make playoffs for two years and be in the same crappy situation again.

"Time is up" is just not an accurate representation of what I am saying. I am not saying the time is up, but I am saying that the leadership needs to be held accountable. You can't say, "We'll trade for a star" and ride that crap indefinitely.

So I'm guessing you are liking the 76ers' rebuild plan. ;)
 

AzStevenCal

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I'm thinking about the interview he gave where he said he was stockpiling assets to trade for a legit star.

I'm not saying he hasn't done anything.

Yes and that interview was not 18 months ago, he was less than 2 months into his job at that point. And he's made it clear that he's not going to just make a trade to make a trade. He's talked about the process. First you have to acquire the pieces and then you have to wait for the opportunity. It might not come for a few year either but you have to have the assets when it does.

Steve
 

BC867

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So I'm guessing you are liking the 76ers' rebuild plan. ;)
Funny! I am thinking that Stefan (as I) wants the Suns Front Office to take the first step in fielding a balanced team. A commitment to do so and grow strong season by season.
 

Mainstreet

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Funny! I am thinking that Stefan (as I) wants the Suns Front Office to take the first step in fielding a balanced team. A commitment to do so and grow strong season by season.

So are you saying you like the 76ers plan and the Suns have not made the first step?
 

BC867

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So are you saying you like the 76ers plan and the Suns have not made the first step?
Did I say that? I am looking for the Suns to make the first step to undoing this 3 lead Point Guard gimmick and how it adversely affects the rest of the positions?

What do the Sixers have to do with it?
 

Mainstreet

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Funny! I am thinking that Stefan (as I) wants the Suns Front Office to take the first step in fielding a balanced team. A commitment to do so and grow strong season by season.

I thought you were agreeing with a possible five year rebuild to get it right.
 

SirStefan32

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Problem with the Sixers is that they are the opposite extreme. Approach itself is not necessarily wrong, but in my opinion, their basketball people don't quite know what they are doing.

Anyway, the Sixers are irrelevant to this discussion. I want the Suns to build a good, balanced team with clearly defined roles, regardless of how long it takes. No gimmicks, no reinventing the wheel, none of that crap.
 

AzStevenCal

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But things have happened. We have an unbalanced roster. An unhappy former lead Point Guard. A PF/closing C who describes himself as undersized and has requested our Guards to cover the slack of rebounding. And a local Press who points out how weak it has been.

Yes we have an unbalanced roster. Why is that a problem for you? Should we have walked away from an opportunity to add coins to our little piggy bank? We're not in the running for a championship today. We're gathering the pieces that will hopefully make it possible down the road. At the same time they are trying to put a product on the court that's worth watching. The Suns are a business first and it's shortsighted to look only at one aspect of that business.

As you once told me, I am surprised by that sarcastic comment (which we both hate).

I support the Suns now, as I always have, despite their turning a 2-lead Point Guard gimmick into a 3-lead Point Guard gimmick and then trying to execute that with added players without the skills to pull it off.

You know very well that Stefan and I would be euphoric if the Suns ever step up to a power game and show improvement every year.

It wasn't sarcasm, I meant it. But I'll tell you this. If I came across this forum as a Suns fan in search of a place to share my love with fellow fans, I'd read this board for a few days and then move on. I can't believe the constant negativity on this board aimed at our players and our coaching and our GM. Ripping them because you imagine Goran is irate goes beyond all reason for me.


As for yearly improvement, you might not be measuring them with the same ruler that McDonough is using. Who cares if each step is visible? I point again to Boston. After several years of frustration, just weeks before they made the deal to acquire Garnett, Stephen A Smith was raking him through the coals and calling for his head. Then they won the championship. They did the same thing there that we are trying to do here. Gather pieces, wait for the right opportunity and live with the mishmash in the interim.

I don't know if this approach will work. I didn't expect it to work in Boston. But every attempt to build a championship is fraught with risks and failure along the way is almost always part of any quest. AFAIC, he's following his program and time will tell if it will succeed. The worst thing he could do IMO is sell off assets to try and fix the now instead of staying the course with an eye on the future. For example, trading IT for a journeyman big man would improve our balance and perhaps make you happier but it would also likely hinder our long term goals.

Steve
 

Mainstreet

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Problem with the Sixers is that they are the opposite extreme. Approach itself is not necessarily wrong, but in my opinion, their basketball people don't quite know what they are doing.

Anyway, the Sixers are irrelevant to this discussion. I want the Suns to build a good, balanced team with clearly defined roles, regardless of how long it takes. No gimmicks, no reinventing the wheel, none of that crap.

Not if you are talking about five years of sucking to get it right. This is what the Sixers are doing.
 

AzStevenCal

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Funny! I am thinking that Stefan (as I) wants the Suns Front Office to take the first step in fielding a balanced team. A commitment to do so and grow strong season by season.

Then you should have screamed loud and hard against the hiring of McDonough. His goal and your goal apparently differ. He wants to build a championship contender, he could care less whether the early years are balanced. He's made it clear that when the time comes, every piece we've acquired will be available to get that player or those players we need to become a special team. No one will be untouchable. Why sacrifice value now for balance? What's the end game there? You aren't building a house, you're collecting building blocks for trade not as a foundation.

Steve
 

SirStefan32

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Not if you are talking about five years of sucking to get it right. This is what the Sixers are doing.

No, no, no. I am not advocating sucking for five years. What I am saying is that I am OK with however long it takes. If it takes five years, it takes five years. If it takes two, it takes two. Sucking for five years on purpose with no plan is not the right way either, and I am advocating that.
 

BC867

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Then you should have screamed loud and hard against the hiring of McDonough. His goal and your goal apparently differ. He wants to build a championship contender, he could care less whether the early years are balanced. He's made it clear that when the time comes, every piece we've acquired will be available to get that player or those players we need to become a special team. No one will be untouchable. Why sacrifice value now for balance? What's the end game there? You aren't building a house, you're collecting building blocks for trade not as a foundation.

Steve
Steve, I am curious if you think that McD is also considering the effect on the rest of the roster. Moving lighter players to heavier positions -- especially at four positions and especially with the game on the line -- could damage the confidence of the roster that is left after a trade or two.

As a fan, I am. You shouldn't ever overlook the foundation.
 

AzStevenCal

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Steve, I am curious if you think that McD is also considering the effect on the rest of the roster. Moving lighter players to heavier positions -- especially at four positions and especially with the game on the line -- could damage the confidence of the roster that is left after a trade or two.

As a fan, I am. You shouldn't ever overlook the foundation.

Look at the other teams, most of the time they match some or all of our changes. We're just not giving up all that much and if speed is your strength, why not use it to your advantage?

Steve
 

Mainstreet

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No, no, no. I am not advocating sucking for five years. What I am saying is that I am OK with however long it takes. If it takes five years, it takes five years. If it takes two, it takes two. Sucking for five years on purpose with no plan is not the right way either, and I am advocating that.

I can understand if the Suns are always moving forward and always trying to build a championship team. We can agree on this. It really bothers me the NBA (and other owners) are allowing the Sixers to get away with egregious tanking.
 

AzStevenCal

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I can understand if the Suns are always moving forward and always trying to build a championship team. We can agree on this. It really bothers me the NBA (and other owners) are allowing the Sixers to get away with egregious tanking.

It bothered me at first but not after I thought about it. They have to have the chance to do what's best for them and that has to be for them to decide. Yes, the NBA has to look at it from a league-wide perspective too but how do you tell a team they can't focus more on the future than the present? It's the same thing on a different scale that Pop does. The league took issue with it initially but has backed off on it and for good reason.

I know a lot of owners want to fix it by doing away with the draft system but much of that push is coming from the rich teams that want to stay rich and still get richer. The Knicks for example want to spend to their heart's delight and still have a chance at drafting the next big thing. Could you imagine if the Lakers of the NBA world got to buy their stars and still come up for a high pick every few years?

Steve
 

Mainstreet

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It bothered me at first but not after I thought about it. They have to have the chance to do what's best for them and that has to be for them to decide. Yes, the NBA has to look at it from a league-wide perspective too but how do you tell a team they can't focus more on the future than the present? It's the same thing on a different scale that Pop does. The league took issue with it initially but has backed off on it and for good reason.

I know a lot of owners want to fix it by doing away with the draft system but much of that push is coming from the rich teams that want to stay rich and still get richer. The Knicks for example want to spend to their heart's delight and still have a chance at drafting the next big thing. Could you imagine if the Lakers of the NBA world got to buy their stars and still come up for a high pick every few years?

Steve

At least the Suns might get the first pick in the draft once in awhile.
 

AzStevenCal

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At least the Suns might get the first pick in the draft once in awhile.

It would further separate the haves from the have nots IMO. And we would perennially be a have not unless we got Lebron James lucky in the draft.

Steve
 
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