What one player would you add?

[elindholm]

There has been a lot of speculation about Dragic's potential effectiveness at SG. So far, we aren't seeing it. His shooting is a little off (43% so far), but not terrible. What's remarkable is that he has only 4 total assists through the first three games. His turnovers are lower, too: 5 total, in 95 minutes, about 2/3 his career per-minute rate. So he's simply not being put into a position to make plays, one way or the other.

 

[Sci Fi]

I say give it 10 games at least..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This may sound alarmist but it's not. Waiting 10 games in the western conference may be too late.

 

[Sci Fi]

There has been a lot of speculation about Dragic's potential effectiveness at SG. So far, we aren't seeing it. His shooting is a little off (43% so far), but not terrible. What's remarkable is that he has only 4 total assists through the first three games. His turnovers are lower, too: 5 total, in 95 minutes, about 2/3 his career per-minute rate. So he's simply not being put into a position to make plays, one way or the other.

Part of his problem at SG is that he has to receive passes from a PG who really isn't very good at being a PG.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Our two PG offense was based on the threat of penetration. Not having Frye out there has allowed other teams to keep their big men in or near the key, making it more difficult to penetrate. The Head Coach needs to come up with another way to make this work. If we're reduced to being nothing but a 3 point shooting team, our two guard combo isn't going to work. If that's the case, we're lottery bound or we're moving Dragic by the deadline. I don't think we want to move Dragic.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

I disagree. The ball is in the wrong hands. Remember how Nash made everyone look good? The reverse can also be true.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I disagree. The ball is in the wrong hands. Remember how Nash made everyone look good? The reverse can also be true.

The ball has been in his hands plenty, his outside shot isn't there and he can't penetrate as he has in the past. I think some of this is just a rush to judgement though. Just about everyone that has watched the preseason and first few games says the same thing, he doesn't look like the player of last year. That's not completely true though. He doesn't look like the player from November through the All Star game last year. He does look a lot like the tired player that finished the 2013-2014 season. More mediocre nights, fewer great nights. But I believe he'll find his legs and his game again soon, he's too much of a competitor not to IMO.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

He's not tired. And he definitely isn't getting the ball as much. He didn't even play much this summer and the tournament ended 10 days earlier than the previous summer. The reason he doesn't look like the same player is because he isn't getting the ball.

Time will tell. The Suns are playing with fire because Dragic has already publicly admitted he'd rather lead his own team than be the third wheel, which is what is happening.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He's not tired. And he definitely isn't getting the ball as much. He didn't even play much this summer and the tournament ended 10 days earlier than the previous summer. The reason he doesn't look like same player is because he isn't getting the ball.

Time will tell. The Suns are playing with fire because Dragic has already publicly admitted he'd rather lead his own team than be the third wheel, which is what is happening.

Actually, I'm not convinced he's too tired either. Maybe he's just not quite into game shape yet as they managed his minutes quite a bit this summer? I suspect if he's tired it's more mentally than anything else, he didn't really get enough time away from work IMO.

I'm sure he's not handling the ball as much as last year but it's pretty obvious when he is handling the ball that he's a different player. He's also admitted that his game was much improved playing alongside Eric and that he was anxiously awaiting his return (last season). That doesn't sound like a player that's unhappy playing the combo role. Maybe adding in the third combo guard is the issue but sitting here at 2 -1 without having played very well yet, I think it's far too early for major changes.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I'm not worried about Dragic. I think he'll get it going eventually.

Suns should not have allowed him to participate in the summer at the FIBA, just like Spurs denied Ginobili.

 

[Sci Fi]

It's not obvious to me he's a different player. He looked fabulous this summer. What's obvious to me is his role is different. And what a player says publicly is practically worthless. They say what is expected. It may or may not be true.

I'm sure the Suns won't change a thing. I believe that will be a mistake.

 

[Mainstreet]

Our two PG offense was based on the threat of penetration. Not having Frye out there has allowed other teams to keep their big men in or near the key, making it more difficult to penetrate. The Head Coach needs to come up with another way to make this work. If we're reduced to being nothing but a 3 point shooting team, our two guard combo isn't going to work. If that's the case, we're lottery bound or we're moving Dragic by the deadline. I don't think we want to move Dragic.

Steve

I think you have properly identified the problem but I refuse to believe the Suns cannot fix the problem without Frye. However, I do agree the Suns may need to do a trade of some sort to fix the problem.

 

[BC867]

I think it's far too early for major changes.

So far, the majority of the substitution pattern in the backcourt has been Bledsoe & Dragic replaced by Thomas & Green. Bledsoe and Thomas are the Point Guards. Dragic & Green are the Shooting Guards.

Goran Dragic has been stripped of the position (Point Guard) that got him chosen 3rd Team All NBA last season (after we lost Bledsoe).

Goran Dragic is definitely not 3rd Team All NBA at Shooting Guard. He was at Point Guard. But he is now the odd man out, playing out of position.

And the concept of two Point Guards on the floor at the same time has yet to show any signs of life.

Those of us who didn't want to see Bledsoe settle on the Suns (because no other team wanted him) had a pretty strong idea that this was going to happen.

The whole concept on which the overcrowded Suns backcourt is based isn't slow and isn't fast. It's half-fast. Say that over and over a couple of times. It's half fast. It's half fast.

And now one of our posters wants to apply the same formula to the Center position. Our players aren't plastic pieces on a chess board. They have emotions. They have pride. And they should be allowed to make it or break it by knowing their role. Anything else is indecision.

 

[Phrazbit]

So far, the majority of the substitution pattern in the backcourt has been Bledsoe & Dragic replaced by Thomas & Green. Bledsoe and Thomas are the Point Guards. Dragic & Green are the Shooting Guards.

Goran Dragic has been stripped of the position (Point Guard) that got him chosen 3rd Team All NBA last season (after we lost Bledsoe).

Goran Dragic is definitely not 3rd Team All NBA at Shooting Guard. He was at Point Guard. But he is now the odd man out, playing out of position.

And the concept of two Point Guards on the floor at the same time has yet to show any signs of life.

Those of us who didn't want to see Bledsoe settle on the Suns (because no other team wanted him) had a pretty strong idea that this was going to happen.

The whole concept on which the overcrowded Suns backcourt is based isn't slow and isn't fast. It's half-fast. Say that over and over a couple of times. It's half fast. It's half fast.

And now one of our posters wants to apply the same formula to the Center position. Our players aren't plastic pieces on a chess board. They have emotions. They have pride. And they should be allowed to make it or break it by knowing their role. Anything else is indecision.

Its bizarre... we kept beating teams last year using the lineup... and people continually claimed it wasn't working... 2-1 so far this year, beat the champs using the lineup... and people continue to claim it isn't working.

A few people here would seemingly be happier watching a .500 or worse team that plays basketball the way it was played 20 years ago.

And I feel like you're the one trying to make players into chess pieces with this infatuation you have with set positions. Dragic had great success last year playing at the 2, he had the best year of his entire career playing at the 2 in a combo role. Right now he simply looks gassed. Not confused, not depressed, just tired. He is getting plenty of the same looks and plays that he got last year and he is not finishing because he is not playing at the same level. Furthermore, even if your theory was right and Dragic would put up much better numbers as a point guard only; who cares? Its not about putting Dragic in a spot to put up good stats, its about the team playing well. The team has played its best with Dragic as a 2.

 

[Errntknght]

I have read and re-read your post. I disagree that playing them both as dual Lead Centers would be any more beneficial than playing Dragic and Bledsoe as dual Lead Point Guards.

What is happening to 3rd Team All NBA Goran Dragic right now is what I feared. He is disappearing.

There are two keys positions on the Court -- Point Guard and Center. The Suns are screwing up Point Guard by not making a commitment to one lead player. And now you are suggesting they do the same at Center.

Doubling a failing experiment isn't going to lead to long-term success.

Obviously, my disclaimer about parity being meaningless didn't work... dual lead centers is entirely your construction, not mine. All I'm suggesting is that we try playing Plumlee and Len together with two possibilities in mind: 1) It may help get Miles out of the funk he's been in and 2) we could have our best two frontcourt defenders and rebounders on the floor at the same time if they did play reasonably well together.

If you are content with the way Miles is playing now I could understand your aversion to trying he and Len playing together some of the time. I suspect you are not content or you'd have said you were, so your objection appears to be only to your own construction of dual lead centers. Heck rewrite my example so one starts and plays 32 minutes and the other doesn't start and plays 24 minutes - it makes no difference to them playing 8 minutes together and covering 48 minutes at C. I suppose I should have made the example like that instead of making the numbers as simple as possible... clearly it did cross my mind that someone would leap on the fact that their numbers were equal and make something of it. I'll try to do better in the future.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm not worried about Dragic. I think he'll get it going eventually.

Suns should not have allowed him to participate in the summer at the FIBA, just like Spurs denied Ginobili.

He had to do it all for most of last year. Now there are two other players filling his role, and one on the court with him at all times. He also seems to be playing much more of the two guard role while on the court, so that is a big change.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He had to do it all for most of last year. Now there are two other players filling his role, and one on the court with him at all times. He also seems to be playing much more of the two guard role while on the court, so that is a big change.

You know what I don't understand? How come everyone is completely ignoring the Frye effect. Last year, as has been pointed out many times, Goran's shooting percentage dropped significantly from both the two and the three point range when Dragic was on the court without Channing. And Goran played and excelled at both guard positions. He put in enough time at each position that I find it hard to believe that his game has fallen off this year because of three games where he's been forced to play predominantly at the two spot.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

Its bizarre... we kept beating teams last year using the lineup... and people continually claimed it wasn't working... 2-1 so far this year, beat the champs using the lineup... and people continue to claim it isn't working.

A few people here would seemingly be happier watching a .500 or worse team that plays basketball the way it was played 20 years ago.

And I feel like you're the one trying to make players into chess pieces with this infatuation you have with set positions. Dragic had great success last year playing at the 2, he had the best year of his entire career playing at the 2 in a combo role. Right now he simply looks gassed. Not confused, not depressed, just tired. He is getting plenty of the same looks and plays that he got last year and he is not finishing because he is not playing at the same level. Furthermore, even if your theory was right and Dragic would put up much better numbers as a point guard only; who cares? Its not about putting Dragic in a spot to put up good stats, its about the team playing well. The team has played its best with Dragic as a 2.

This game does not have to be played with one of each, pg, sg, sf, pf, c. One of the best things that could ever happen to the NBA is if they get away from those designations altogether. Teams have been successful in the past with two pgs (90's Pistons, and yes, Dumars play pg too). Two centers, (Robinson and Duncan), point forwards, etc. Looking forward to this season.

I am quite amazed at how effective IT is for his size.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I re-watched a couple of the games today and I stand by my contention that we haven't adjusted to life without Frye. This is just one example but there is one play early in the Lakers game that exemplifies the problem (around the 8:15 mark in the 1st quarter). Dragic catches a pass from Markieff and then drifts to the corner three spot. With his defender closing out on him, Goran gathers himself, views the floor with an eye to making his typical drive to the hoop and counts 5 defenders prepared to defend his penetration. So he throws up a low percentage three that has even less chance of becoming an offensive rebound. There is no spacing right now and it's killing Goran especially.

The Frye ship has sailed, this team has to figure out other ways to space the court.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

You know what I don't understand? How come everyone is completely ignoring the Frye effect. Last year, as has been pointed out many times, Goran's shooting percentage dropped significantly from both the two and the three point range when Dragic was on the court without Channing. And Goran played and excelled at both guard positions. He put in enough time at each position that I find it hard to believe that his game has fallen off this year because of three games where he's been forced to play predominantly at the two spot.

Steve

Are you Zelaznyrules on real gm?

The Frye ship has sailed

Yes it has, so lets stop talking about it.

 

[sunsfan88]

He had to do it all for most of last year. Now there are two other players filling his role, and one on the court with him at all times. He also seems to be playing much more of the two guard role while on the court, so that is a big change.

I think they should rarely play IT and Dragic together. Dragic should get 10-15 mins without IT or Bledsoe and then remaining minutes with just Bledsoe.

IT should only play with Bledsoe or as the only PG on the floor (meaning no Dragic or Bledsoe).

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes it has, so lets stop talking about it.

Then substitute some other name for Frye because this really isn't about Frye. It's about Dragic and what the loss of a good catch and shoot big man means to his game. They don't respect our outside shooters and that's leaving Goran with less room to operate. And yes, I post as ZR.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I think if spacing is that important for Dragic, they should consider playing Marcus at PF with Goran at PG when the 2nd lineups come in. Something like this;

Dragic
Green
Tucker
Marcus
Len

Another idea would be to give Shavik Randolph more minutes. He's worked on the 3pt shot this summer and he's tall enough to shoot over smaller players also.

Tolliver should be fine once his hand heals. He's had similar if not better 3pt shooting season than Frye last season.

 

[slinslin]

Markieff not starting is a joke.

Dragic needs to simply play better.

Any updates on the Horford vs Markieff thing? I know I would not choose a backup to add for our team.

 

[SirStefan32]

Then substitute some other name for Frye because this really isn't about Frye. It's about Dragic and what the loss of a good catch and shoot big man means to his game. They don't respect our outside shooters and that's leaving Goran with less room to operate. And yes, I post as ZR.

Steve

I disagree. What's leaving Goran less room to operate and Bledsoe and IT dominating the ball. Now, if you give him the ball, it will make one of the other two less effective. Thus, the whole 3PG thing is never going to really work.

You saw it yesterday- Dragic played well because Hornacek had him as the primary ball handler most of the game. Bledsoe had a terrible game. They both need the ball to be effective. It may get the team to the playoffs, but one or two of the three will never get to their full potential this way.

 

[elindholm]

You saw it yesterday- Dragic played well because Hornacek had him as the primary ball handler most of the game. Bledsoe had a terrible game.

And what makes things even more complicated is that, so far, Thomas has been much more effective on the offensive end than either of them. You have two "starting PGs" who are both getting outplayed by their backup.