What one player would you add?

[BC867]

I'd add Halloween Alex Len.

Trick or treat? I'd call it a treat!

 

[95pro]

Kawhi Leonard will be a RFA next summer, perfect SF for the Suns especially in their small ball lineups.

Leonard is basically a more offensively skilled version of prime Shawn Marion.

If Len comes around on a consistent basis like tonights suns/spurs game, then Kawhi would be the next chip to fall.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Why spend all the dough on Leonard when we can have Warren on a rookie deal?

Touch of sarcasm mixed with a healthy dose of hopefulness.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Why spend all the dough on Leonard when we can have Warren on a rookie deal?

Touch of sarcasm mixed with a healthy dose of hopefulness.

Well, if it weren't for the "touch of sarcasm", I'd agree with you completely here. I think he's a little overrated but Leonard is a proven commodity, Warren isn't. But I like Warren's chances of becoming a very good player, perhaps even the equal of Leonard. We have definite needs and I just don't see the reasoning behind trying to solve a problem that we don't have. With Warren, Marcus, PJ and Goodwin, I think we're in pretty good shape at the wing position. I'd like another quality big man but other than that, I'd rather see what this group can grow into.

Steve

 

[KloD]

Well, if it weren't for the "touch of sarcasm", I'd agree with you completely here. I think he's a little overrated but Leonard is a proven commodity, Warren isn't. But I like Warren's chances of becoming a very good player, perhaps even the equal of Leonard. We have definite needs and I just don't see the reasoning behind trying to solve a problem that we don't have. With Warren, Marcus, PJ and Goodwin, I think we're in pretty good shape at the wing position. I'd like another quality big man but other than that, I'd rather see what this group can grow into.

Steve

That won't be a problem as Leonard isn't going anywhere. Makes no sense for the Spurs to extend him now. It would eat up their cap, if they wait to match an offer, they can go over to sign him. He's a Spur for years to come.

I am super happy with how we are looking @ this point in the season. If Len stays healthy and both he and Plumlee continue to improve, we are going to be fine at the center. I'd rather see the Suns focus on finding a traditional PF.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That won't be a problem as Leonard isn't going anywhere. Makes no sense for the Spurs to extend him now. It would eat up their cap, if they wait to match an offer, they can go over to sign him. He's a Spur for years to come.

I am super happy with how we are looking @ this point in the season. If Len stays healthy and both he and Plumlee continue to improve, we are going to be fine at the center. I'd rather see the Suns focus on finding a traditional PF.

I think I'd rather us find a stretch 4/5 so we can back to using Markieff as a traditional PF. I like him so much more when he plays down low rather than camped out at the three point line. Someone like a Spencer Hawes, although preferably not quite that soft. I forget where Payne ended up (Boston?) but I'd give them a call and see if they have interest in Ennis or Goodwin.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

I think I'd rather us find a stretch 4/5 so we can back to using Markieff as a traditional PF. I like him so much more when he plays down low rather than camped out at the three point line. Someone like a Spencer Hawes, although preferably not quite that soft. I forget where Payne ended up (Boston?) but I'd give them a call and see if they have interest in Ennis or Goodwin.

Steve

This idea that you have that Bledsoe/Dragic won't succeed unless they have a stretch 4/5 is honestly absurd.

If we have a good rim protector and big man who can hit mid range shots, we don't need someone chucking away from 3 to start at PF.

Kieff has started at PF thus far and scored well even without hitting a lot of 3s.

List of good teams who have a backcourt that's about as good as shooters as ours if not worse or only slightly better and don't have 3pt chuckers at PF or C:

Bulls: Rose and Butler, Noah and Pau don't shoot 3s, and prior to Pau, Boozer never shot 3s.

Rockets: Beverly and Harden. Harden's a better shooter than Dragic/Bledsoe but both Goran and Bledsoe are much, much better than Beverly so overall, its not that bad a comparison. Terrence Jones and Dwight Howard don't shoot 3s.

Raptors: Lowry and DeRozan are imo worse than Dragic/Bledsoe but even if you think they are better shooters, its not by much. Amir Johnson and Valcunias don't shoot 3s.

Thunder: Westbrook/Sefolosha. Perkins doesn't shoot 3s, Ibaka does so now very rarely so I'd hardly consider him a stretch 4.

Last year's Pacers: Hill/Stephenson. West and Hibbert don't shoot 3s.

Wizards: Wall/Beal. Similar to Rockets, Beal is better than Dragic/Bledsoe but Wall is much, much worse so it makes it even. Gortat and Nene can't shoot a lick.

Grizzlies: Conley/Lee. Randolph and Marc Gasol don't shoot 3s.

Every team listed above has a backcourt that is similar to in terms of shooting ability if not worse and yet they don't have 3pt chuckers at starting PF or C. Oh and most of them are contenders, and all of them are playoff teams.

We don't need 3pt shooters at PF or C to be successful. A guy like Taj Gibson who is among the top 5 defensive PFs in the NBA while also good in the mid range shot would suffice for the Suns. Or anyone else as long as they can shoot from mid range.

Having two big men on the floor who aren't shooters isn't a bad thing as long as they provide something else like rebounding or defense or post game. The teams I listed above have been doing it like that for years.

If we landed a PF who isn't a 3pt shooter but has ability, we could start him and bring Kieff back to the bench and we wouldn't miss a beat.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This idea that you have that Bledsoe/Dragic won't succeed unless they have a stretch 4/5 is honestly absurd.

There are a lot of ways to win in this league and I certainly don't think you have to have a stretch 4 or 5 to succeed. But I'm not thrilled with Dragic and Bledsoe as traditional point guards. They are at their best when they penetrate and create offense for themselves or for kickouts to wide open shooters. It's very difficult to penetrate when you have bigs camped in the lane. I don't know of another team that has two guards that are as dependent upon the drive and kick (or layup).

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

There are a lot of ways to win in this league and I certainly don't think you have to have a stretch 4 or 5 to succeed. But I'm not thrilled with Dragic and Bledsoe as traditional point guards. They are at their best when they penetrate and create offense for themselves or for kickouts to wide open shooters. It's very difficult to penetrate when you have bigs camped in the lane. I don't know of another team that has two guards that are as dependent upon the drive and kick (or layup).

Steve

Their not driving and kicking at the same time. There's only one basketball so that means while one is driving, the other is outside. Very rarely is both Bledsoe and Dragic both in the paint at the same exact time.

So that means that Dragic can kick it out to Bledsoe if the double comes and then Bledsoe can hit the open 3 (something he's gotten a lot better at), or Bledsoe will drive and kick it out to Dragic who can hit the 3 (something that he's already very good at, 40%+ from 3 last season).

Westbrook, Conley, Rose, Lowry, Wall all penetrate despite having bigs in the lane. Their backcourt teammate stands near the perimeter in case they double off to the penetrator so that the back court mate can get an open shot. Dragic and Bledsoe can do exactly that. And its not necessarily in the lane if one of the big steps out near the 3pt line to get open at the mid range area.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Their not driving and kicking at the same time. There's only one basketball so that means while one is driving, the other is outside. Very rarely is both Bledsoe and Dragic both in the paint at the same exact time.

So that means that Dragic can kick it out to Bledsoe if the double comes and then Bledsoe can hit the open 3 (something he's gotten a lot better at), or Bledsoe will drive and kick it out to Dragic who can hit the 3 (something that he's already very good at, 40%+ from 3 last season).

Westbrook, Conley, Rose, Lowry, Wall all penetrate despite having bigs in the lane. Their backcourt teammate stands near the perimeter in case they double off to the penetrator so that the back court mate can get an open shot. Dragic and Bledsoe can do exactly that. And its not necessarily in the lane if one of the big steps out near the 3pt line to get open at the mid range area.

Neither Bledsoe nor Dragic are good catch and shoot guys, they both seem to shoot better off the bounce.

Go look at the stats last year for Dragic, he was a different player when our stretch big was on the court. You make light of the big guys that can stretch the floor but ask yourself this, why does it seem that just about every team is in search of a big man that can spread the floor?

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Neither Bledsoe nor Dragic are good catch and shoot guys, they both seem to shoot better off the bounce.

Go look at the stats last year for Dragic, he was a different player when our stretch big was on the court. You make light of the big guys that can stretch the floor but ask yourself this, why does it seem that just about every team is in search of a big man that can spread the floor?

Steve

Its good to have but not necessary. There's a reason that guys like Matt Bonner and Ryan Anderson don't start. Frye will never start for a good team in his life either.

Kevin Love, see as arguably the best stretch 4, also has a very good post game and is monster rebounding the ball.

I'd love to have a stretch 4 off the bench, sure.

But I think rim protection, post offense, and rebounding are much more important than 3pt shooting from a big man.

Dragic will be just fine without having a 3pt chucking big man.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its good to have but not necessary. There's a reason that guys like Matt Bonner and Ryan Anderson don't start. Frye will never start for a good team in his life either.

Kevin Love, see as arguably the best stretch 4, also has a very good post game and is monster rebounding the ball.

I'd love to have a stretch 4 off the bench, sure.

But I think rim protection, post offense, and rebounding are much more important than 3pt shooting from a big man.

Dragic will be just fine without having a 3pt chucking big man.

The thread title is "what one player would you add", not "what starter". I think we could benefit from having a stretch big man that can cover either power spot and still space the court. Last night for example, Markieff spent some time at the three but only shot it once and the lane was often crowded as a result. I'd prefer he do that then actually take those threes but the resulting congestion made it difficult for our guys to drive and kick or take it all the way to the hoop. Daye, for example, when he guarded Markieff, wouldn't even venture past the free throw line, often leaving several feet between him and number 11 at the arc.

Anyway, I'm not looking for a Keef replacement. I just want a quality big that can provide help defense and is a legit threat to take and make the long distance shots. I don't want to go through another summer hearing about how Markieff is working on his 3 point shot. I want to hear about how he's taken his game on the blocks to another level or about how much he's improved his mid-range play.

Steve

 

[BC867]

If Len stays healthy and both he and Plumlee continue to improve, we are going to be fine at the center. I'd rather see the Suns focus on finding a traditional PF.

Unfortunately, Plumlee has not continued to improve. Right through Game 2 of this new season.

Name one skill at which he is even average as a Center. Not compared to you and me, but to NBA Centers, who are going to be in his face every night. Just as he has been below average at every point of his career.

That grades him as a "D+" and that's unacceptable, especially at Center, even when he plays less than 15 minutes as he did vs. the Spurs. Less than 15 minutes. That says it all! And if an alibi is that he can't stay out of foul trouble, that is part of the equation.

 

[Errntknght]

Unfortunately, Plumlee has not continued to improve. Right through Game 2 of this new season.

Name one skill at which he is even average as a Center. Not compared to you and me, but to NBA Centers, who are going to be in his face every night. Just as he has been below average at every point of his career.

That grades him as a "D+" and that's unacceptable, especially at Center, even when he plays less than 15 minutes as he did vs. the Spurs. Less than 15 minutes. That says it all! And if an alibi is that he can't stay out of foul trouble, that is part of the equation.

I can't disagree about the current Plumlee we are seeing but for all of last season his defensive grade was well above average. Go to the tracking data site and check for yourself - his rate of contesting shots was among the highest across the league and his FG% against was better than average. That includes the last part of the season when he was not looking very good. (The latest version of the tracking site doesn't allow filters so its a pain to use. To select earlier years you have to guess to click the 'wheel' at the end of the row that says Defense.)

 

[BC867]

I can't disagree about the current Plumlee we are seeing but for all of last season his defensive grade was well above average. Go to the tracking data site and check for yourself - his rate of contesting shots was among the highest across the league and his FG% against was better than average. That includes the last part of the season when he was not looking very good. (The latest version of the tracking site doesn't allow filters so its a pain to use. To select earlier years you have to guess to click the 'wheel' at the end of the row that says Defense.)

I am curious which of our two young Centers you would favor as starting Center for the future. Plumlee or Len. I guess there is a third choice -- let's wait and see. And a fourth choice -- none of the above.

In a previous post, when I stated a preference for Len (if he can stay healthy), I nevertheless said that Plumlee should not be removed at this time. I still feel that way . . . for awhile.

Either way, it calls for our starting Power Forward to provide strenth in the frontcourt. I cringe every time I read a post about our Power Forwards' 3- point shooting as a criteria.

For decades, I have quoted what seems to be the Suns long-long-standing philosophy -- put on a show at home, don't embarrass yourselves on the road and make an appearance in the playoffs.

So far, in three short games, we achieved the first, we blew the second and the third is a long way off.

The play of our frontcourt is going to be the difference maker, regardless of past stats.

 

[Errntknght]

Because of his age I see Len more of the starting center of the future. Sizewise he is perfect for the traditional NBA center but he may never develop a back-to-the-basket game - no sign of it yet. There has been some chatter that he is showing a decent midrange game in practice, in which case he may be more of a PF on the offensive end. Also in that case, he and Plumlee may be able to play together at times - I think they would be our best defensive and rebounding frontcourt. On defense, Len would take the opps back-to-the-basket guy and Plums would defend the paint as a whole, helping out wherever needed. (If they didn't have a low post threat very likely Plumlee would wind up against the more mobile big with Len being the last line of defense.) Frankly, if I were Hornacek, I'd be thinking of trying them together soon and not worrying a lot about the offensive end. Bled, Tucker, Marcus, Plumlee and Len might make a very strong defensive lineup and has enough speed to fastbreak.

 

[sunsfan88]

Plumlee-Len would be a disastrous lineup, just like Lopez-Gortat was.

It's too slow to make a difference defensively and no spacing offensively. NBA today relies on a lot of speed and athleticism more so than size.

Maybe it'll be a lineup to try against the Grizzlies or the Bulls but that's about it.

 

[Errntknght]

Plumlee-Len would be a disastrous lineup, just like Lopez-Gortat was.

It's too slow to make a difference defensively and no spacing offensively. NBA today relies on a lot of speed and athleticism more so than size.

Maybe it'll be a lineup to try against the Grizzlies or the Bulls but that's about it.

It is your conjecture that its too slow and unathletic... if Len and Markieff is passable I don't see how Len and Plumlee fails on those counts. Granted, the offense wouldn't be our best but I'd like to see how it would play on D before worrying too much about the offense. The game against Utah certainly got to a stage where it couldn't have hurt to try it and I'm sure there will be other such opportunities. Such opportunities should not be wasted, thats the time to experiment.

I'm very open to experiments involving Plumlee... we've seen what he can do when he's at his best so anything that might get him back to that state of mind or emotion or whatever it was, is worth a try - anything short of trading Len.

 

[Mainstreet]

The way I'm looking at it right now, the Suns are trying to keep a traditional center on the court. This limits the options of Plumlee and Len playing together. They are better served backing each other up. I'm not confident Shavlik Randolph fits the bill as a backup center except for spot duty. Certainly the Suns will use Markieff at center when opposing teams have a smaller lineup on the court but I think the Suns want to use Markieff at center sparingly.

 

[BC867]

The way I'm looking at it right now, the Suns are trying to keep a traditional center on the court. This limits the options of Plumlee and Len playing together. They are better served backing each other up. I'm not confident Shavlik Randolph fits the bill as a backup center except for spot duty. Certainly the Suns will use Markieff at center when opposing teams have a smaller lineup on the court but I think the Suns want to use Markieff at center sparingly.

 

[Errntknght]

I agree with Mainstreet, in general terms but I want the team to try to get Plumlee performing the way we've seen in the past. If that happens he can play 30 minutes a game instead of fifteen and play better. Sharing the court might have the opposite of the effect I'm hoping for but I can imagine it helping. I can also imagine starting Len in his place having a positive effect on Plums, as counter-intuitive as that seems.

The arithmetic is pretty simple - if Plumlee and Len can each play 28 minutes effectively, then they can play 20 minutes each separately and play 8 minutes together - and cover the C spot for 48 minutes. (I'm talking averages here, not a formula for every game, of course.) I suppose I should add a disclaimer that parity between them is not necessary either, so someone does take that too literally.

 

[BC867]

I agree with Mainstreet, in general terms but I want the team to try to get Plumlee performing the way we've seen in the past. If that happens he can play 30 minutes a game instead of fifteen and play better. Sharing the court might have the opposite of the effect I'm hoping for but I can imagine it helping. I can also imagine starting Len in his place having a positive effect on Plums, as counter-intuitive as that seems.

The arithmetic is pretty simple - if Plumlee and Len can each play 28 minutes effectively, then they can play 20 minutes each separately and play 8 minutes together - and cover the C spot for 48 minutes. (I'm talking averages here, not a formula for every game, of course.) I suppose I should add a disclaimer that parity between them is not necessary either, so someone does take that too literally.

I have read and re-read your post. I disagree that playing them both as dual Lead Centers would be any more beneficial than playing Dragic and Bledsoe as dual Lead Point Guards.

What is happening to 3rd Team All NBA Goran Dragic right now is what I feared. He is disappearing.

There are two keys positions on the Court -- Point Guard and Center. The Suns are screwing up Point Guard by not making a commitment to one lead player. And now you are suggesting they do the same at Center.

Doubling a failing experiment isn't going to lead to long-term success.

 

[Sci Fi]

I have read and re-read your post. I disagree that playing them both as dual Lead Centers would be any more beneficial than playing Dragic and Bledsoe as dual Lead Point Guards.

What is happening to 3rd Team All NBA Goran Dragic right now is what I feared. He is disappearing.

There are two keys positions on the Court -- Point Guard and Center. The Suns are screwing up Point Guard by not making a commitment to one lead player. And now you are suggesting they do the same at Center.

Doubling a failing experiment isn't going to lead to long-term success.

I'm so glad someone noticed this so I didn't have to say it. This is exactly what is happening and why I didn't want Bledsoe signed. The player that should be running this team is largely an afterthought. The offense looks terrible and I don't really expect that to change much because Hornacek isn't going to take the ball out of Bledsoe's hands.

I actually think Dragic looks pissed out there. My guess is that if things continue on as is, he won't sign here next year.

And I agree with your comment about the center position. On most really good teams, players have a role with a clear heirarchy. The Suns are just a hodgepodge right now.

 

[3rdside]

We're three games in bc - chiiill!


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[3rdside]

I say give it 10 games at least..


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