What present Suns player has the highest upside?

[leclerc]

I'm not sure what "elite skill" Archie possess that Bledsoe does not. Archie is good at one thing, barreling into the lane, and Bledsoe certainly is as good as he is at that, and he is better at literally every aspect beyond.

Archie is not better right now but I think he has the potential to be a better shooting guard than Eric is a point guard.

Maybe I have too high hopes for the young guys on the team. I think Eric has reached his potential and he is a good combo guard although not all star level. Hopefully Archie, Devin, TJ and Alex can turn into solid starters/rotation players as well. Don't know if anybody can be an all star though.

 

[Errntknght]

What interests me about Goodwin and the team is how much effort has the team put into helping Archie improve his game. Its been reported a number of times that he is a hard worker so you'd expect he would give the effort if they'd bring in a 'shot doctor' to work on his jumper and 3 pt shot. They could also hire or assign some assistant to work constantly with him on shots he might take during his drives - runner or floater or pull up.

The amount of money they'd have to spend if he can indeed be helped is almost irrelevant - a half million dollars would be a bargain. After all they'll be paying him many millions over the course of his rookie deal. Of course, if he were smart he'd do it himself since the difference between making it and failing is at least 20 million - with lots of upside.

Naturally, I don't know that they don't do that but you'd think we'd hear about it if they did. Or even see some significant change.

 

[Chaplin]

Archie is not better right now but I think he has the potential to be a better shooting guard than Eric is a point guard.

I definitely disagree with you there, but I'd like to know what you are using as your reasoning to claim this.

Maybe I have too high hopes for the young guys on the team. I think Eric has reached his potential and he is a good combo guard although not all star level. Hopefully Archie, Devin, TJ and Alex can turn into solid starters/rotation players as well. Don't know if anybody can be an all star though.

Eric's forward trajectory has been better than Archie's and Eric was a better player from the start. I sometimes wonder if some fans are being objective, or if they simply dislike Bledsoe for some reason so whatever improvement he does make isn't going to satisfy.

But I just cannot agree that Archie Goodwin will EVER be better than Eric Bledsoe at pretty much anything.

 

[Chaplin]

What interests me about Goodwin and the team is how much effort has the team put into helping Archie improve his game. Its been reported a number of times that he is a hard worker so you'd expect he would give the effort if they'd bring in a 'shot doctor' to work on his jumper and 3 pt shot. They could also hire or assign some assistant to work constantly with him on shots he might take during his drives - runner or floater or pull up.

The amount of money they'd have to spend if he can indeed be helped is almost irrelevant - a half million dollars would be a bargain. After all they'll be paying him many millions over the course of his rookie deal. Of course, if he were smart he'd do it himself since the difference between making it and failing is at least 20 million - with lots of upside.

Naturally, I don't know that they don't do that but you'd think we'd hear about it if they did. Or even see some significant change.

All you're saying is true, but then if for some reason neither thing happened, it means either a) The Suns don't think he can or is worth improving, or b) he's not as motivated as we thought to get better. Either way, that's a dead roster space in my book.

 

[leclerc]

What is your point of this statement? Is there an offer from the Pelicans for Anthony Davis for Archie Goodwin or something? I think its obvious that good bigs are harder to get than good guards, as Suns fans we should especially know.

See unlike you, I'm not bidding Booker and Goodwin against each other. And based on what Hornacek said during the summer league interview, he isn't either. Goodwin was a project when we drafted him, Booker is much more NBA ready than him so no I'm not gonna say "Yea Goodwin sucks since Booker is good". You said next summer, but forget that, I think Booker may very well be better than Goodwin this season. That doesn't change my view on Goodwin.

I know your trying to turn this into a Booker vs Goodwin thing but I'm not gonna fall for your bait.

What the heck does that even mean anyway? Its like me liking vanilla ice cream and one time I try chocolate ice cream and I like that, but doesn't mean I'm not gonna say "Oh yea I hate vanilla now".

The coaches themselves say that Archie has shown improvement in practice and I expect that to translate over to the games eventually. If not, oh well.

Well said.

 

[leclerc]

What interests me about Goodwin and the team is how much effort has the team put into helping Archie improve his game. Its been reported a number of times that he is a hard worker so you'd expect he would give the effort if they'd bring in a 'shot doctor' to work on his jumper and 3 pt shot. They could also hire or assign some assistant to work constantly with him on shots he might take during his drives - runner or floater or pull up.

The amount of money they'd have to spend if he can indeed be helped is almost irrelevant - a half million dollars would be a bargain. After all they'll be paying him many millions over the course of his rookie deal. Of course, if he were smart he'd do it himself since the difference between making it and failing is at least 20 million - with lots of upside.

Naturally, I don't know that they don't do that but you'd think we'd hear about it if they did. Or even see some significant change.

I agree. It worries me as well. I was hoping to see a larger improvement in summer league from Archie. Hopefully he gets playing time and earns the the minutes during the first half of the season. Good thing they cleared out Mook and Green so Archie, TJ and maybe Booker can get consistent minutes.

 

[Phrazbit]

Archie is not better right now but I think he has the potential to be a better shooting guard than Eric is a point guard.

Maybe I have too high hopes for the young guys on the team. I think Eric has reached his potential and he is a good combo guard although not all star level. Hopefully Archie, Devin, TJ and Alex can turn into solid starters/rotation players as well. Don't know if anybody can be an all star though.

If you looked around the league I think you'd be surprised how many guys can improve greatly between 25-30. And Bledsoe is already a really really good player. He is a plus offensive player (despite the grumblings by many here) and by every metric he is one of the best defensive guards in the league. He needs to improve his shooting efficiency (which isn't bad but certainly could be and has been better) and he needs to cut back on the mistakes on offense. We've seen him play more controlled and more efficient in 2013/14 when he was on a team with better fitting parts despite him and Dragic being the only actually good players on the roster. IMO this year's team is much more talented than that team was, the question is if he and Knight will make a good pairing.

As for Archie, for him to eventually be a better player than Bledsoe is now... I just don't see it. He has all of Bledsoe's warts, only Archie's are worse. Archie is a legit awful shooter with terrible shot selection, he can penetrate like a monster but cannot finish at the rim and he is an abysmal passer and ball handler. Combine that with really dumb defensive play...

He has a looooooooooong way to go. Right now he looks like one of hundreds of "athletes" that are not really basketball players that this league spits out within a few years. I'm not saying we should just dump him, because he makes beans, but my expectations for him are extremely low.

 

[Joe Mama]

I agree. It worries me as well. I was hoping to see a larger improvement in summer league from Archie. Hopefully he gets playing time and earns the the minutes during the first half of the season. Good thing they cleared out Mook and Green so Archie, TJ and maybe Booker can get consistent minutes.

I was less discouraged by Archie than I was by TJ and Alex. I know Warren was first-team all summer league, but wasn't he last year as well? I know he can score around the basket in bunches. What I was hoping to see was a semblance of an outside shot and some decent defense. Neither was there. Alex Len still got into foul trouble, especially on dumb fouls. He kind of looked like he didn't really want to be there. Archie Goodwin was about what we've all come to expect. Frustrating thing is that all of them should be much better defensively.

If you looked around the league I think you'd be surprised how many guys can improve greatly between 25-30. And Bledsoe is already a really really good player. He is a plus offensive player (despite the grumblings by many here) and by every metric he is one of the best defensive guards in the league. He needs to improve his shooting efficiency (which isn't bad but certainly could be and has been better) and he needs to cut back on the mistakes on offense. We've seen him play more controlled and more efficient in 2013/14 when he was on a team with better fitting parts despite him and Dragic being the only actually good players on the roster. IMO this year's team is much more talented than that team was, the question is if he and Knight will make a good pairing.

As for Archie, for him to eventually be a better player than Bledsoe is now... I just don't see it. He has all of Bledsoe's warts, only Archie's are worse. Archie is a legit awful shooter with terrible shot selection, he can penetrate like a monster but cannot finish at the rim and he is an abysmal passer and ball handler. Combine that with really dumb defensive play...

He has a looooooooooong way to go. Right now he looks like one of hundreds of "athletes" that are not really basketball players that this league spits out within a few years. I'm not saying we should just dump him, because he makes beans, but my expectations for him are extremely low.

come on man. There is a legitimate point to be made without such hyperbole. He finishes at the room very well from what I've seen. He is not an abysmal passer and ball handler. He's not a pure passer by any means. Neither is Bledsoe. However I'm hopeful that all of the guards will be getting more assists and fewer turnovers this season with better spacing provided by some of the new players. I'm also hoping that they are all spending some time together this summer working with each other.

Now Goodwin's defense and outside shooting leaves A LOT to be desired.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

come on man. There is a legitimate point to be made without such hyperbole. He finishes at the room very well from what I've seen. He is not an abysmal passer and ball handler. He's not a pure passer by any means. Neither is Bledsoe. However I'm hopeful that all of the guards will be getting more assists and fewer turnovers this season with better spacing provided by some of the new players. I'm also hoping that they are all spending some time together this summer working with each other.

Now Goodwin's defense and outside shooting leaves A LOT to be desired.

Joe

My only question is how many summers of repeating the same thing do we have to go through before we realize that this kind of player is a dime a dozen?

I honestly hope Archie pans out, but if Booker significantly passes him in the rotation, that's it. There is NO question that Weems will be ahead of both of them, but Archie won't do much of anything as a 5th guard on this team.

And saying the coaching staff is high on him isn't saying much since they don't play him.

 

[Joe Mama]

My only question is how many summers of repeating the same thing do we have to go through before we realize that this kind of player is a dime a dozen?

I honestly hope Archie pans out, but if Booker significantly passes him in the rotation, that's it. There is NO question that Weems will be ahead of both of them, but Archie won't do much of anything as a 5th guard on this team.

And saying the coaching staff is high on him isn't saying much since they don't play him.

I'm not sure I would say players like him are a dime a dozen, but my guess is they already have Booker penciled in as the third guard. As well they should. I was impressed with Booker his first two games when he didn't even shoot well (okay, he shot poorly). It only got better from there. I think he's going to be giving the two starting guards plenty of rest and maybe even stealing minutes at the 3 pretty quickly.

Joe

 

[Errntknght]

I'm not sure I would say players like him are a dime a dozen, but my guess is they already have Booker penciled in as the third guard. As well they should. I was impressed with Booker his first two games when he didn't even shoot well (okay, he shot poorly). It only got better from there. I think he's going to be giving the two starting guards plenty of rest and maybe even stealing minutes at the 3 pretty quickly.

Joe

Don't forget about Sonny Weems - McD sounded pretty high on him. I think the better 3pt shooter will prevail eventually but I expect them to give Weems the first look as the third guard. One of the things he said was the Weems is a very good defender - Bled, Weems, PJ, and Tyson could give some very strong defensive lineups.

 

[95pro]

Don't forget about Sonny Weems - McD sounded pretty high on him. I think the better 3pt shooter will prevail eventually but I expect them to give Weems the first look as the third guard. One of the things he said was the Weems is a very good defender - Bled, Weems, PJ, and Tyson could give some very strong defensive lineups.

I think Booker could be in that defensive mix as well.He moves and reads plays well, and is quicker than portrayed.

 

[leclerc]

I definitely disagree with you there, but I'd like to know what you are using as your reasoning to claim this.

I'm thinking what tools they have and what they're missing.

Both can get by their defenders which is important to be a scoring threat, especially for elite shooting guards. They also need to work on mid-range and 3pt shooting to be counted as top level guards.

Now for point guards court vision, passing ability and leadership is very important. I feel these are Eric's weak spots that people often say are natural gifts etc. They are not that important to shooting guards.

So Archie has good ball handling and passing skills for a shooting guard, having played a bit of point in college (I guess), and he can get by defenders. Shooting is easier to teach than the point guard skills. Archie is also 3 (?) years younger than Eric. I hope Archie becomes a great shooting guard and I hope Eric improves as a point guard. I believe Archie can be a better shooting guard than Eric can be point guard. I'm not saying it will happen. We'll see.

My favourite ice cream is pistachio and my favourite team is the Suns.

 

[95pro]

I'm thinking what tools they have and what they're missing.

Both can get by their defenders which is important to be a scoring threat, especially for elite shooting guards. They also need to work on mid-range and 3pt shooting to be counted as top level guards.

Now for point guards court vision, passing ability and leadership is very important. I feel these are Eric's weak spots that people often say are natural gifts etc. They are not that important to shooting guards.

So Archie has good ball handling and passing skills for a shooting guard, having played a bit of point in college (I guess), and he can get by defenders. Shooting is easier to teach than the point guard skills. Archie is also 3 (?) years younger than Eric. I hope Archie becomes a great shooting guard and I hope Eric improves as a point guard. I believe Archie can be a better shooting guard than Eric can be point guard. I'm not saying it will happen. We'll see.

My favourite ice cream is pistachio and my favourite team is the Suns.

Bledsoe is 25. Archie 20

 

[leclerc]

Video proof of one shooting lesson from coach:

http://youtu.be/aMXUDUBKqO4

 

[Phrazbit]

come on man. There is a legitimate point to be made without such hyperbole. He finishes at the room very well from what I've seen. He is not an abysmal passer and ball handler. He's not a pure passer by any means. Neither is Bledsoe. However I'm hopeful that all of the guards will be getting more assists and fewer turnovers this season with better spacing provided by some of the new players. I'm also hoping that they are all spending some time together this summer working with each other.

Now Goodwin's defense and outside shooting leaves A LOT to be desired.

Joe

He makes Bledsoe look like Nash when it comes to passing. Archie is grossly inept. Even if he were a forward his passing stats would be bad. No player who has played PG for the majority of their minutes should have more career turnovers than assists. He does not even think to pass, he is as selfish as any player we've seen roll through here, and when he does he is more apt to give the ball to the wrong team than a teammate in position to score.

As for his finishing at the rim, when there is traffic in the lane he stinks at it. He barrels in there flinging the ball at bad angles hoping for a bail out call. This is one of the reasons I think he looks good against terrible competition (like the D-League and Summer League) and then looks almost unusable in the NBA. NBA players contest most drives to the rim, he is not good at finishing vs a contest and instead hopes for the foul. Archie shot 50% within 5 feet last year. That is NOT good. For comparison's sake Bledsoe shot 59% from the same distance. Look up virtually any competent guard and you'll see Archie's finishing ability near the hoop is really poor. Its what makes his 39% for the year even more distressing, the majority of his shot attempts (115 out of 201) were right around the basket and too have still shot sub 40% on the year is dreadful. Most guards who shoot such ugly overall percentage it is because they're in love with the 3 and long 2's, Archie however earned that mark by struggling everywhere.

I'm not rooting against Archie, I want him to be good, that would be awesome. He clearly had a ton of athletic ability. However, I don't see any reason to expect him to be good, or even be a useful rotation player based on what I've seen.

 

[Joe Mama]

He makes Bledsoe look like Nash when it comes to passing. Archie is grossly inept. Even if he were a forward his passing stats would be bad. No player who has played PG for the majority of their minutes should have more career turnovers than assists. He does not even think to pass, he is as selfish as any player we've seen roll through here, and when he does he is more apt to give the ball to the wrong team than a teammate in position to score.

As for his finishing at the rim, when there is traffic in the lane he stinks at it. He barrels in there flinging the ball at bad angles hoping for a bail out call. This is one of the reasons I think he looks good against terrible competition (like the D-League and Summer League) and then looks almost unusable in the NBA. NBA players contest most drives to the rim, he is not good at finishing vs a contest and instead hopes for the foul. Archie shot 50% within 5 feet last year. That is NOT good. For comparison's sake Bledsoe shot 59% from the same distance. Look up virtually any competent guard and you'll see Archie's finishing ability near the hoop is really poor. Its what makes his 39% for the year even more distressing, the majority of his shot attempts (115 out of 201) were right around the basket and too have still shot sub 40% on the year is dreadful. Most guards who shoot such ugly overall percentage it is because they're in love with the 3 and long 2's, Archie however earned that mark by struggling everywhere.

I'm not rooting against Archie, I want him to be good, that would be awesome. He clearly had a ton of athletic ability. However, I don't see any reason to expect him to be good, or even be a useful rotation player based on what I've seen.

well, I have to apologize. I should have looked at the numbers before I opened my mouth. In the half court on shots around the basket not including post ups Eric Bledsoe had a 1.113 PPP ranking him in the 65 percentile. Archie on the other hand was at 0.844 which puts him in the 13th percentile. These rankings are against everybody else in the league, so take that into account. Still really bad.

In possessions + assists he was at 0.997 which is the 17 percentile. Eric Bledsoe in the same category is at 1.262 which puts him in the 86th percentile. FYI that puts Bledsoe at #57 amongst guards, but 58-60 are Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, and Goran Dragic (Phoenix Suns). With Miami Goran Dragic was #17 at 1.329.

Well, that's all a little depressing, but I do expect these numbers will go up with the moves the Phoenix Suns have made this summer.

Joe

 

[Phrazbit]

well, I have to apologize. I should have looked at the numbers before I opened my mouth. In the half court on shots around the basket not including post ups Eric Bledsoe had a 1.113 PPP ranking him in the 65 percentile. Archie on the other hand was at 0.844 which puts him in the 13th percentile. These rankings are against everybody else in the league, so take that into account. Still really bad.

In possessions + assists he was at 0.997 which is the 17 percentile. Eric Bledsoe in the same category is at 1.262 which puts him in the 86th percentile. FYI that puts Bledsoe at #57 amongst guards, but 58-60 are Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, and Goran Dragic (Phoenix Suns). With Miami Goran Dragic was #17 at 1.329.

Well, that's all a little depressing, but I do expect these numbers will go up with the moves the Phoenix Suns have made this summer.

Joe

Yeah, that is my hope with Bledsoe. There is no whitewashing his turnover rates last year, they were bad and he made a lot of stupid passes. However, opposing defenses were able to collapse on penetration last season because what little 3pt shooting we had, those guys preferred to play off the dribble anyway so driving and kicking out was not a threat, they could cut off the rim, play the passing lane and force Bledsoe into situations that he is not comfortable in. Next season there looks to be a lot more offensive balance, which will hopefully open up the lane and not only make him, and our other guards, better when going to the rim but also give them options to pass in order to keep the defense honest.

 

[sunsfan88]

You are completely interpreting this wrong. 2 years for a shooting guard to improve is a lot of time in the NBA. Archie has barely improved at all, what do you expect the coaches to say? "Archie Goodwin is not a good player and is worthless to us." OF COURSE they are not going to say that.

I'm pointing out the fact that you give him a free pass when there will be better options at SG who will improve much faster (for example, Booker). Athletic shooting guards who can't shoot are a dime a dozen. Nothing so far has shown that Archie is anything more than that.

And yes, I AM pitting Booker and Goodwin against each other. They play the same position and are both young. Booker, who hasn't played a minute in the NBA, right now looks at least equal with Goodwin in skill level. That is a huge red flag against Archie, since he's had 2 years to improve. But people like you want to keep letting him try to prove himself. That's great if this was a rec league at the local Y, but in the NBA, he's almost to the point where all he's doing is wasting a roster spot.

I REALLY hope Archie shows something this year, otherwise, he should and will be gone next summer. Even if you claim once again, that his potential is still worth holding onto.

Your acting as if I'm saying that Goodwin should get more minutes than Booker or start over Booker or something. Booker is an NBA ready prospect, Goodwin was a project when drafted, doesn't matter if he's been in the NBA for 2 years, he's still a project and he has all of his rookie contract to prove to the Suns if he's worth it or not. There's a reason Booker was drafted in the lottery while Goodwin almost slipped to the 2nd round.

I'm not gonna get into your Booker vs Goodwin bait because unlike you, I want to see them both succeed. I want to see Bledsoe and Knight succeed too. Why don't you talk about Bledsoe is way better than Knight too then? Or vice versa?

And as for the coaches saying that about Goodwin, they say that about him without being asked about him. Media will ask a question like who has been working out the most and training the hardest and they say Goodwin most of the time. Even last season when the Morris twins supposedly lived at the Suns practice facility over summer, Hornacek and McD both said Goodwin was the Suns player who put the most time in.

And you said their just saying that to save face, well when Goodwin complained about playing time this last season, Suns could have easily dumped him for a 2nd rd pick or something if they wanted to but McD came to his defense and said they like him, they want him and that he's not going anywhere. Why do all that then?

It's interesting that my hope for Goodwin bugs you so much. But whether you like it or not, I'll still have hope for him until he's perhaps off this team.

 

[sunsfan88]

Bledsoe is 25. Archie 20

Yea this itself makes a pretty big difference IMO.

Goodwin right now reminds me some of Dragic when he first entered the league. Showed the ability to get to the rim but struggled to finish and was mostly out of control, terrible shooter, mediocre ball handler, mediocre defender etc. I remember when he had that tragic nickname and was just awful.

It took Goran years to develop into the quality starter that he is today, so it's way too early to write off Archie. Goodwin has much better physical tools than Goran as well.

I'm not saying he has to improve because Goran did, Goodwin very well may turn out to be nothing but its just too early to give up on the kid.

 

[mjb21aztd]

I put warren I like booker upside as well. But warren has shown a lot of promise in summer lg just hoping he shows his skills throughout the reg season.

 

[Joe Mama]

Yea this itself makes a pretty big difference IMO.

Goodwin right now reminds me some of Dragic when he first entered the league. Showed the ability to get to the rim but struggled to finish and was mostly out of control, terrible shooter, mediocre ball handler, mediocre defender etc. I remember when he had that tragic nickname and was just awful.

It took Goran years to develop into the quality starter that he is today, so it's way too early to write off Archie. Goodwin has much better physical tools than Goran as well.

I'm not saying he has to improve because Goran did, Goodwin very well may turn out to be nothing but its just too early to give up on the kid.

okay, I'm with you regarding the idea that it's Booker versus Goodwin. Understand where you are coming from on that. I'm sorry though. The bolded from your quote you just pulled out of your butt. Go look up Goran Dragic's shooting statistics from his first season to this last one. Goran Dragic has always had a nice outside shot. There were a couple seasons where he wasn't shooting it as well as others, but to compare him to Goodwin in that area is just wrong. He's also always been a better ball handler and even defender. I still think Goran Dragic gets a bad rap around here for his defense, more than what was deserved. Goodwin is just really bad defensively despite having the athleticism and the length to be a really good defender.

Joe

 

[iRobot]

I put warren I like booker upside as well. But warren has shown a lot of promise in summer lg just hoping he shows his skills throughout the reg season.

Warren with a better outside shot and reliable defense would be a perennial All-Star IMO

 

[Mainstreet]

Warren with a better outside shot and reliable defense would be a perennial All-Star IMO

This would apply to a number of Suns players such as Archie Goodwin and Alex Len.

 

[iRobot]

This would apply to a number of Suns players such as Archie Goodwin and Alex Len.

Agreed.

Probably applies to a number of NBA players, but, I meant that TJ has a refined offensive game that needs only a slight amount of polish and a defensive game with potential that when realized would set him apart.

I think Goodwin and Len have a bit more of a way to go but they're not far behind TJ.