Will D'Antoni Make Adjustments?

[George O'Brien]

During preseason, D'Antoni tried putting Q into the starting lineup against the Jazz. The result was a blowout of a team many thought to be a top contender. Whatever thoughts he had of playing a conventional lineup was diminished by having no big who was even vaguely starting lineup material.
Hunter was too inconsistent, Jake has not progressed in the last few years, Lampe looked lost, and Vroman played like a second round rookie.

Does that mean D'Antoni hates big guys not named Amare? I don't know. But if he had a solid big man, I'm pretty sure he's use him. The key is that he has to be able to handle the ball, shoot, and run - which leaves a lot of guys out fo the question.

Some people say the Suns should'nt get a guy who scores in close because he'd get into Amare's way. Would he? Amare doesn't camp under the basket any more. A smart inside guy would know to get out of the way when Amare is running the pick and roll - but also to go to the weak side to get in position for a rebound. The Suns offense did not grind to a halt when Amare and Hunter were in the lineup at the same, and Hunter is not well schooled.

The real adjustment would have to be on the part of D'Antoni and to a certain degree Nash. The Suns half court offense is mostly pick and roll with kick outs to spot up shooters. The rest of it is Nash wandering around looking for someone to pass to. It's an easy offense to impliment - if Nash is the PG.

However, no one else can do exactly what Nash does. He couldn't do it five years ago. To deal with periods when Nash is not on the floor, the Suns need to evolve a more diverse offense. Some of the things I would suggest are:

1. Run more double screens to get shooters open. JJ and Nash are fantastic shooters, but there are no screens to get them open looks.

2. Run backscreens for Amare. If Amare is playing with a big guy, have him set back screens so Amare can go baseline without a crowd.

3. Have cutters cross the lane to pull the opponent's bigs away from Amare.

4. Develop a low post setup that uses Amare as a passer to cutters to the basket.

The key to these plays is that they don't necessarily require a great PG, just players who will pass the ball.

 

[HooverDam]

I agree w/ pretty much everything youve said in this post. It seemed like the Suns didnt make a lot of adjustments during the season, hopefully they can use this off-season to expand the play book. I think if we used more screens to get guys open it would really expand the offense and help out guys like McCarty* and JJackson. Id also like to see the offense expanded to run plays for Marion- he can shoot well and drive and finish strong, I worry if he doesnt have a few more plays run for him, he could become a malcontent. Also, like everyone I'd like to see more of Q posting out (especially when Amare's out), and pump faking the 3 and stepping in a few feet for the J.


*Im all for seeing McCarty back. There arent many 6-10 forwards out there that can run and shoot like him. He just needs to find his place in the offense

 

[George O'Brien]

D'Antoni's "let them play" style worked very well most of the season, but I'd like to see the team expand their offense to offset some of the things they are facing. For example, the fact that the Spurs were willing to let Amare score 40 on them is something D'Antoni needs to address because no one guy can beat a top team.

 

[scotsman13]

D'Antoni's "let them play" style worked very well most of the season, but I'd like to see the team expand their offense to offset some of the things they are facing. For example, the fact that the Spurs were willing to let Amare score 40 on them is something D'Antoni needs to address because no one guy can beat a top team.

i want to see the suns set up a more focused half court game with slasher and more screens off the ball. they need to plan to get the other active in the half court game.

 

[JPlay]

I would rather see us get Melvin Ely. He had some great rebounding performances when Emeka was out and is a great shot blocker.

 

[F-Dog]

1. Run more double screens to get shooters open. JJ and Nash are fantastic shooters, but there are no screens to get them open looks.

2. Run backscreens for Amare. If Amare is playing with a big guy, have him set back screens so Amare can go baseline without a crowd.

3. Have cutters cross the lane to pull the opponent's bigs away from Amare.

4. Develop a low post setup that uses Amare as a passer to cutters to the basket.

The Suns ran a double-screen for Nash at the ends of most of the games in the Mavericks series. They don't have anybody who's big enough (or expendable enough) to screen out the other team's center on the baseline. Opposing bigs already drop off Amare, even without cutters. And, the Suns are already planning to turn Amare into a post passer for next season.


The Suns could use more diversity on offense; I'm sure they'll add a second page to the playbook if they get a chance to work out at all this summer. However, they're never, ever going to resemble the mid-90's Utah Jazz, no matter how much you would prefer them to play that way.

The Suns are not going to spend 10 seconds setting up and running a play that may or may not work (probably won't work in the playoffs, in fact, since the other team will know exactly what's coming). Not when they can get even better looks by running a simple P&R or isolation play.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Suns early offense is very very good, but probably not enough to get by the Spurs and Pistons in the playoffs. They need to be able to adjust when needed. The fact that a shorthanded Sonics team gave the Spurs more trouble than the Suns (better defense was a big part) was at least partly based on how they used their screens and picks.

BTW, I think Q could learn to be very good at setting picks if they worked with him on it.

 

[Joe Mama]

The Suns early offense is very very good, but probably not enough to get by the Spurs and Pistons in the playoffs. They need to be able to adjust when needed. The fact that a shorthanded Sonics team gave the Spurs more trouble than the Suns (better defense was a big part) was at least partly based on how they used their screens and picks.

BTW, I think Q could learn to be very good at setting picks if they worked with him on it.

the Phoenix Suns averaged 104 points per game on 50% shooting against the San Antonio Spurs. Seattle averaged 91.8 points per game on 45% shooting against the San Antonio Spurs in the Western Conference semifinals. Seattle may have taken San Antonio to one more again than the Phoenix Suns did, but that doesn't necessarily mean they gave the Spurs more trouble.

Seattle played well against San Antonio because they had the size in the frontcourt to bother Duncan and Mohamed. Their defense and rebounding and was better.

Joe Mama

 

[cly2tw]

the Phoenix Suns averaged 104 points per game on 50% shooting against the San Antonio Spurs. Seattle averaged 91.8 points per game on 45% shooting against the San Antonio Spurs in the Western Conference semifinals. Seattle may have taken San Antonio to one more again than the Phoenix Suns did, but that doesn't necessarily mean they gave the Spurs more trouble.

Seattle played well against San Antonio because they had the size in the frontcourt to bother Duncan and Mohamed. Their defense and rebounding and was better.

Joe Mama

Their size is mostly Evans than anything else, whom you distain. But seriously, if they had Radmovic and Lewis healthy, we might be in the finals instead of the Spurs.

 

[Joe Mama]

Their size is mostly Evans than anything else, whom you distain. But seriously, if they had Radmovic and Lewis healthy, we might be in the finals instead of the Spurs.

you have conveniently forgotten Jerome James, who was a huge part of their success in those games, Danny Fortson, Nick Collison, and even Potapenko.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

The Sonics "quantity over quality" inside play certainly disrupted the Spurs. One thing about their big guys, most can't shoot, bt they can set picks. This is why the Sonics shooters could get open.

 

[Errntknght]

F-Dog, "However, they're never, ever going to resemble the mid-90's Utah Jazz, no matter how much you would prefer them to play that way.

The Suns are not going to spend 10 seconds setting up and running a play that may or may not work (probably won't work in the playoffs, in fact, since the other team will know exactly what's coming). Not when they can get even better looks by running a simple P&R or isolation play."

Actually, I'm thinking of the Suns more resembling Sacramento with Webber setting up at the knuckle to run the pinch post with Bibby. It's not exactly a play, it's a maneuver with a good dozen options - even more than the P&R. Heck, you have several options while you're setting up for it.

Imagine Nash, high left w. ball and Amare is going to set up at the right knuckle. You want the G who's high right, say Q, to dive and clear first so that's one option. Or Amare comes first and sets a pick for Q who goes toward Nash a step or two and then dives. Amare's man has to help a bit and if Q's defender goes over the pick, Amare is free to roll to the hoop. Nash is in good position to pass to either. If JJ's in the left corner and his man cheats toward the basket because of Q, Nash can reverse to him. Three more options and if none work out then they actually carry out the pinch post maneuver.

Q's action is not artificial - you want him to cycle out high left as Nash crosses over during the pinch post. He's the release man if nothing works out and also has backcourt responsibility. Or if you wanted it to be even more 'motion offense' like, Q sets a down pick for JJ, who cycles out high left. It's probably better with JJ coming out because he could immediately go into a P&R with Amare, should time be short.

 

[F-Dog]

Actually, I'm thinking of the Suns more resembling Sacramento with Webber setting up at the knuckle to run the pinch post with Bibby. It's not exactly a play, it's a maneuver with a good dozen options - even more than the P&R. Heck, you have several options while you're setting up for it.

I think the Suns resemble the Webber Kings already, in that they run the same play (maneuver?) over and over. They run the P&R instead of the pinch post, but the point is the same, which is that they will always know how to run their play better than the other team knows how to stop it.


My main problem with the pinch post is that it turns Amare into a 20-foot jump-shooter. Still, it would be a nice change-up for the P&R if the Suns could get good at it, and hey, they learned their current offense in less than a year, so why not?

My guess is that D'Antoni has already decided to add a play where Amare is the initiator. It will be interesting to see where he sets up for that play (the elbow makes a lot of sense, since his iso plays usually start from there) and whether they use pinch-post concepts.

 

[George O'Brien]

I can't say I know the in's and out's of the pinch post or the Princeton offense. In watching the Kings, it appears that a key element is having a high post guy who is a substantially better than average passer plus a low post guy who moves well. When Webber slowed down, their offense stopped working well.

If by some fluke the Suns ended up with Frye, I could see him as a very good high post center in that kind of offense since he can shoot jumpers and pass. However, without a real high post player, I can't see the Suns moving in that direction.

Putting Amare at the high post wouldn't work unless they add a solid low post player to go with him. Maybe Amare could learn to become a Divac type passer, but I'm not convinced that is the best use of the next superstar post player.

 

[Errntknght]

Actually, George, Amare now starts his isolation plays about where he'd set up to run the pinch post - as F-Dog noted above, so it's not really much of a change to what they are doing now as far as positioning goes. My idea in picking the pinch post was that it's final phase would put Amare in his normal iso position but with lots of other options leading up to it. (One of the options leading up to it is to turn it into a P&R at the last second - and a P&R where Amare's defender is ill positioned to help on Nash if he had been trying hard to deny the entry pass to Amare, as is often the case.)

Yes, the Kings pinch post play slowed down as Webber slowed - it isn't too effective if the post man in not a threat to drive since his defender can play more up on him and bother his shooting and passing with impunity. In addition the wing defenders don't have to worry about helping on his drives so they can focus entirely on their own men. If Amare were not a threat to drive, I wouldn't be bringing up the pinch post.

Another reason I brought it up is that it is a play that JJ or JJ2 could run almost effectively as Nash - even Barbosa handle it, I think. It has lots of options but they happen in pretty much a well defined order so it's more like a set play than the P&R. And the options are mostly right in the normal field of vision of the guard involved.

[For anyone who's still reading this thread and doesn't remember the basic pinch post. The high post man sets up at one knuckle or the other, on the weak side, and the guard with the ball crosses over the top toward him and passes him the ball. The guard continues toward him and goes around him just about like it was a screen. At this point the post man can hand the ball back to the guard - or not. There is an element of deception at this juncture - players on the weak side can't see what's happening and the players executing the play use fake handoffs, blind handoffs, delayed handoffs and dribble handoffs to further confuse the issue. The offense keys movements of other players to this moment when the defense is unsure, giving rise to some of the options I mentioned.
If there is no handoff the post man faces up in essentially an isolation play - though ideally, there is still considerable movement so he has passing options.]

 

[Lars the Red]

D'Antoni's "let them play" style worked very well most of the season, but I'd like to see the team expand their offense to offset some of the things they are facing. For example, the fact that the Spurs were willing to let Amare score 40 on them is something D'Antoni needs to address because no one guy can beat a top team.

I think this is also a key, GO, 'let them play'. D'Antoni didn't do nearly enough with the bench during the regular season. It became much too easy for him to just allow the starters to pile up the minutes and points when games were clearly out of reach. I would never be one to call Jake, Leandro, Hunter, McCarty, etc., stud reserves, but taking minutes off the legs of starters is critical late in the season.

Does anyone not think that Shawn having to play intense playoff basketball against larger opponents had a telling effect on him in the final series? Bowen, Shmowen, Shawn was out of gas. He got away with it during the regular season, because frankly, we know that there's plenty of games to loaf through. Oh, but the playoffs are entirely different.

We'll see if next season, D'Antoni doesn't see the benefit of putting some of the bench boys out there if only for a few minutes here and there. Inconsistant players don't become solid on the bench. Put them in, get them some trial by fire. Otherwise we'll be seeing similar results in the future, which isn't a bad thing, but will generally fall short of a championship.

 

[Mainstreet]

the Phoenix Suns averaged 104 points per game on 50% shooting against the San Antonio Spurs. Seattle averaged 91.8 points per game on 45% shooting against the San Antonio Spurs in the Western Conference semifinals. Seattle may have taken San Antonio to one more again than the Phoenix Suns did, but that doesn't necessarily mean they gave the Spurs more trouble.

Seattle played well against San Antonio because they had the size in the frontcourt to bother Duncan and Mohamed. Their defense and rebounding and was better.

Joe Mama

I think Joe Mama pretty much nails it and it comes down to size primarily.
The Suns can outrun most teams much of the year, but when push came to shove, the Suns did not have the height to get their shots off inside (Marion and Q) in a half court set and the Spurs were quick enough to get outside on our 3 point shooters. Also defensively we had a terrible time trying to slow down Parker but Ginobili's cutting, shooting and flopping killed us.

I'm really beginning to dislike Ginobili which means I wish he were on our team. We had no answer for him.

Having some big, agile role players inside would really help this team in clogging up the middle and especially on defense and rebounding.

I seem to be one of the most vocal in voicing my concern that the Suns also need a quality back-up PG for Steve Nash that can distribute the ball when he is out of the lineup. I want to prolong Nash's career like John Stockton. Too many times Nash could hardly rest for two or three minutes before our offense became unglued.

Having a good backup PG would also allow the Suns to continue to run skill ball when he is out of the lineup. Unfortunately, the offense bogs down with Jackson, JJ or Barbosa are at the reins. I would like for the Suns to not only be able to play small and athletic but also big an athletic. Hopefully the Suns can accomplish this with some good role players through FA, the Draft, or hopefully not a major trade (unless it clearly gets us better).

I will go so far as to say, however, that if I could add only one player to this team it would be at PG (even as desperate as the Suns are for bigs). This would add at least one more player that can get minutes and rest Nash.

This may sound contradictory to my first paragraph but it shows how strongly I feel about Nash. This team has probably one of the most elite PG's since KJ on our team (yes I remember Jason Kidd). Let's keep him healthy because this team is not going any further than he can carry us. He is the quarterback of our team and I believe he has the skills to utilize the considerable talent on this team to win a Championship.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think this is also a key, GO, 'let them play'. D'Antoni didn't do nearly enough with the bench during the regular season. It became much too easy for him to just allow the starters to pile up the minutes and points when games were clearly out of reach. I would never be one to call Jake, Leandro, Hunter, McCarty, etc., stud reserves, but taking minutes off the legs of starters is critical late in the season.

Does anyone not think that Shawn having to play intense playoff basketball against larger opponents had a telling effect on him in the final series? Bowen, Shmowen, Shawn was out of gas. He got away with it during the regular season, because frankly, we know that there's plenty of games to loaf through. Oh, but the playoffs are entirely different.

We'll see if next season, D'Antoni doesn't see the benefit of putting some of the bench boys out there if only for a few minutes here and there. Inconsistant players don't become solid on the bench. Put them in, get them some trial by fire. Otherwise we'll be seeing similar results in the future, which isn't a bad thing, but will generally fall short of a championship.

My guess is that the Sun's backup players simply did not play well enough to warrent more minutes. IMHO, the Sun's backup big men were simply not very good and playing more wasn't going to change that.

 

[Joe Mama]

IMO if the Phoenix Suns are only able to add one player (assuming they re-sign Joe Johnson) it should be a strong, athletic power forward/center. Between Jimmy Jackson, Joe Johnson, and even Barbosa they have the backup point guard taking care of for right now.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

I'd love to get a backup point guard, but I want a big guy more.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd love to get a backup point guard, but I want a big guy more.

George I totally agree, however, not at the cost of getting a quality backup PG for Nash. I wouldn't even chance it for one more season.

I actually want both and more if I can get it. It's kind of like killing the goose that lays the Golden Egg. I believe if the Suns do not get a quality PG to backup Nash he will wear down next year. He could scarcely get any rest during the games this year. I did not see any solid evidence that JJ, Jackson or Barbosa could effectively run the team for any length of time. Maybe Barbosa will develop in time. If the Suns wear out Nash with too many minutes or lose him to injury, there goes our opportunity for a Championship. All I'm saying, is protecting our investment and hope lies with keeping Nash healthy.

Believe me, I want the Suns to get a big man as much as anyone. What I am trying to say... no Nash... no Championship. If we can keep Nash healthy and our nucleus together, there is a window of opportunity for several more years.

What I think people are maybe hearing me say is, the Suns need a PG not a big man. What I'm really saying is we cannot neglect the PG position while going after some big men that can play. However, I think most people realized while watching the playoffs that when Nash was out of the lineup for any extended minutes the team was hurting.

That's why I said, theoretically, if I could only add one player to this team (all things being equal) it would be a quality distributing PG. In my opinion, I'm sure the Suns plan to add some bigs to this team in any regard.

 

[myrondizzo]

the problem is there arnet many quality distributing PGs out there. and none in our price range. i think people get a little greedy and expect the team to run just as well with nash out but that is just not going to happen. that is what made him the MVP. there is always going to be a drop off when you pull your starters. that is why they start. and someone that can keep the game flowing as well as nash isnt going to want to sit the bench. we kept nashs min down most of last season. barbosa is very young and still learning as he gains more experience and confidence he will improve and he is already better at D than nash. and that is what cost us the spurs series D.

 

[Joe Mama]

the problem is there arnet many quality distributing PGs out there. and none in our price range. i think people get a little greedy and expect the team to run just as well with nash out but that is just not going to happen. that is what made him the MVP. there is always going to be a drop off when you pull your starters. that is why they start. and someone that can keep the game flowing as well as nash isnt going to want to sit the bench. we kept nashs min down most of last season. barbosa is very young and still learning as he gains more experience and confidence he will improve and he is already better at D than nash. and that is what cost us the spurs series D.

That's right. We are not going to find a point guard that is going to run the offense just as well as Steve Nash. In fact when he was out of the lineup once or twice at the end of the season (I know he missed the game against Dallas) the team was fine. What they need is another versatile swingman who can fill the minutes at the 2-3 when JJ or Jimmy Jackson spends time at the 1.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

It's a tough call. I don't really know how far away Barbosa is from being a real point guard. My guess is that the Suns think he can learn the job. If so, then getting another shooter to take over when Jimmy Jackson leaves is not a bad plan either.

BTW, the point point guard that would be of interest at 21 is Jarret Jack. I doubt he will last until then because rumor is his stock is rising. If he's gone, then the subject of drafting a PG at 21 is moot

 

[sunsfn]

I just do not see the suns drafting a point guard at 21 no matter who is there. JJ, JJack, and Barbosa are going to be the backups for now. The suns need a big so much more than a point there should be no consideration for a point until they get a big somehow. I am hoping they can get a point guard in the 2nd round that could at least be a few minutes a game time if he is the best at that time in the draft. It appears that Travis Dieners stock is going up and he will not be there on our 2nd pick.

However, if they can sign a free agent big, then they could take someone like Jack if he is still there. (unless they have their eye on a swing player=BPA)
I have thought though, that the suns would take a european player on that 2nd pick because it is so late in the draft, and leave him overseas for a year or two. They can not afford to do that with the 21st pick, that is someone that has to help them right away.