2018 Playoffs Thread

[JCSunsfan]

As I looked at Tatum before last year's draft, I certainly could see the offensive skill set. I wondered about defense, and everyone else wondered about athleticism. Athleticism is deceptive with players though. Some players jump around on a pogo stick like Gerald Green. There is a lot of wasted effort. Other players can be very athletic but they are also very efficient with their movements. Charles Barkley was like that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He has been MUCH better than I expected he would be this year. I knew he was skilled offensively but i didn't think he was this good and I thought his defense would hold him back. Obviously Hayward getting hurt and then Brown increased his minutes but man has he been good.

Yup. I was dead wrong about him.

 

[Ronin]

Dave McMenamin‏Verified account@mcten 14s15 seconds ago
Ty Lue wouldn't reveal his starting lineup for Game 1. Tristan Thompson was a hero in Game 7, but Jeff Green was very effective against the Raps in the Cavs' two regular season wins against them when they went small. Lue also said George Hill's back is "good" to go.

 

[Russ Smith]

As I looked at Tatum before last year's draft, I certainly could see the offensive skill set. I wondered about defense, and everyone else wondered about athleticism. Athleticism is deceptive with players though. Some players jump around on a pogo stick like Gerald Green. There is a lot of wasted effort. Other players can be very athletic but they are also very efficient with their movements. Charles Barkley was like that.

I thought two things, he wasn't a good defender and in the NBA he'd give up more than he got, that hasn't been true at all. And I thought he had a tendency to take the easy way out and pull up and shoot instead of going all the way, I felt that "soft" play would be an issue in the NBA. It hasn't been, he makes the pullups, and frankly he's not nearly as soft as I thought he was.

Hate to say it but maybe another example of the system at Duke making it hard to see how good someone really is?

 

[elindholm]

I think one problem is that people think "athleticism" means jumping ability, speed, strength, and not much else. But balance is also a big element of athleticism, and I think it's just as good a predictor for whether someone will succeed. You can say that Nash or Harden "lack athleticism," but their balance is exceptional. I suspect that the "smoothness" we all see in Tatum is due to superior balance.

May 24, 2017

 

[JCSunsfan]

I thought two things, he wasn't a good defender and in the NBA he'd give up more than he got, that hasn't been true at all. And I thought he had a tendency to take the easy way out and pull up and shoot instead of going all the way, I felt that "soft" play would be an issue in the NBA. It hasn't been, he makes the pullups, and frankly he's not nearly as soft as I thought he was.

Hate to say it but maybe another example of the system at Duke making it hard to see how good someone really is?

Or good coaching on the part of Brad Stevens.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think one problem is that people think "athleticism" means jumping ability, speed, strength, and not much else. But balance is also a big element of athleticism, and I think it's just as good a predictor for whether someone will succeed. You can say that Nash or Harden "lack athleticism," but their balance is exceptional. I suspect that the "smoothness" we all see in Tatum is due to superior balance.

May 24, 2017

"Smoothness" is another way of saying exceptional body control. And yes, it is an aspect of athleticism. There is also an intellectual aspect. You can be an athlete and conserve energy, behave efficiently, and use angles etc.

Its Jason Bourne rather than the Tazmanian Devil type of behavior that some players exhibit.

 

[Ronin]

Chris Haynes‏Verified account@ChrisBHaynes 24s25 seconds ago
Warriors guard Stephen Curry will make his postseason debut tonight for Game 2 against the Pelicans.

 

[Russ Smith]

May 24, 2017

That's actually really true.

With him I think it's somewhat similar to Curry although on a completely different scale. Steph Curry is not an elite athlete, he dunks maybe twice a season. But he's such a good shooter and such a good ball handler that you have to play him honest and it allows him to blow by guys who are MUCH more athletic than he is and finish with his high arcing flip shots or other things. He's not the best finisher in the NBA from the guard position but he's in the top X and it's entirely because he's such a good shooter people overplay him jumper and he gets layups.

With Tatum he's not blindingly quick or a great leaper, but he's so skilled, and so fundamentally sound, that you have to play him a certain way and whatever you try and take away, he's good enough to take the counter.

I guess the "smooth" aspect of his game also fooled me into believing he wasn't as good as he actually is.

 

[Mainstreet]

The good play of Tatum makes me wonder if Hayward might become expendable unless the Celtics figure out a way to play both in the same lineup.

More likely, perhaps one can move to shooting guard. It's a nice problem to have.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The good play of Tatum makes me wonder if Hayward might become expendable unless the Celtics figure out a way to play both in the same lineup.

More likely, perhaps one can move to shooting guard. It's a nice problem to have.

Then where do you play Jaylen? They have a nice problem

 

[Mainstreet]

Then where do you play Jaylen? They have a nice problem

They have to put as much talent on the court as possible. Maybe Jaylen can be the new Draymond Green.

LOL

 

[Mainstreet]

@Ouchie-Z-Clown

Remember the good old days when the Celtics traded us Joe Johnson.

 

[Suns_fan69]

That's actually really true.

With him I think it's somewhat similar to Curry although on a completely different scale. Steph Curry is not an elite athlete, he dunks maybe twice a season. But he's such a good shooter and such a good ball handler that you have to play him honest and it allows him to blow by guys who are MUCH more athletic than he is and finish with his high arcing flip shots or other things. He's not the best finisher in the NBA from the guard position but he's in the top X and it's entirely because he's such a good shooter people overplay him jumper and he gets layups.

With Tatum he's not blindingly quick or a great leaper, but he's so skilled, and so fundamentally sound, that you have to play him a certain way and whatever you try and take away, he's good enough to take the counter.

I guess the "smooth" aspect of his game also fooled me into believing he wasn't as good as he actually is.

All good stuff. I'm curious how you guys think this pertains to Doncic. I actually don't have a horse in this race (I would be happy with either him or Ayton), but I do find the constant conversation about Doncic's athleticism interesting. Most people would say Nash was not 'athletic' in the traditional sense, but he was still damn effective at his job.

 

[Cheesebeef]

All good stuff. I'm curious how you guys think this pertains to Doncic. I actually don't have a horse in this race (I would be happy with either him or Ayton), but I do find the constant conversation about Doncic's athleticism interesting. Most people would say Nash was not 'athletic' in the traditional sense, but he was still damn effective at his job.

He was also the exception to the rule. Drafting guys you hope are exceptions to the rule is just a dangerous road to go super high in a really good lottery.

 

[Mainstreet]

All good stuff. I'm curious how you guys think this pertains to Doncic. I actually don't have a horse in this race (I would be happy with either him or Ayton), but I do find the constant conversation about Doncic's athleticism interesting. Most people would say Nash was not 'athletic' in the traditional sense, but he was still damn effective at his job.

Doncic has enough athleticism. It's more like what position he plays. He is labeled as a SG/SF.

The only way I see Doncic working well with the Suns is Booker and Doncic share PG duties. I don't think either are pure PGs.

Maybe the Suns go this direction if they do not get the top pick.

I'd pick Ayton at #1.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He was also the exception to the rule. Drafting guys you hope are exceptions to the rule is just a dangerous road to go super high in a really good lottery.

True but the exceptions happen to be some of the best ever. Larry Bird is another such exception. So if they’re saying Doncic is such an exception, gotta hope he’s Nash/Bird good.

 

[Hoop Head]

The good play of Tatum makes me wonder if Hayward might become expendable unless the Celtics figure out a way to play both in the same lineup.

More likely, perhaps one can move to shooting guard. It's a nice problem to have.

I think the Celtics will go with a lineup featuring Kyrie at PG, Jaylen, Hayward, and Tatum as the forwards/wings, and Horford at Center. They seem to do best with 3 wings on the floor and so long as they have a big body inside they can get away with it. Horford isn't ideal for that but he has been able to hold down the position quite well in Boston. That is in the East though and playing Embiid will test how good he is. They've been looking to replace him for a while, or bring in someone who is a stronger inside presence and move Horford to PF. The Celtics are overflowing with talent right now and Stevens finds a way to make it work. He has Marcus Morris playing well, and better than Markieff, while primarily playing "PF" if you had to assign a position to him. Markieff was always the better brother up until this season and it wasn't really much of a contest before either. Markieff's game hasn't declined much either but Stevens has Marcus rebounding and playing defense, which they both struggled to do here and since they've been gone.

 

[Russ Smith]

All good stuff. I'm curious how you guys think this pertains to Doncic. I actually don't have a horse in this race (I would be happy with either him or Ayton), but I do find the constant conversation about Doncic's athleticism interesting. Most people would say Nash was not 'athletic' in the traditional sense, but he was still damn effective at his job.

I haven't seen him play enough to know. Based on the videos I'm leery that he's not good enough at any one thing to be in that conversation.

he appears to be a very skilled player but I don't think he's as good a shooter as Tatum is. 43% from 3 in the regular season, 48% overall, 83 from the FT line, for a kid his age at this level that's pretty damn good shooting at that size.

 

[Russ Smith]

True but the exceptions happen to be some of the best ever. Larry Bird is another such exception. So if they’re saying Doncic is such an exception, gotta hope he’s Nash/Bird good.

Bird was amazing. Great shooter had to run him off the 3. Great post player because he had so many moves and footwork and then if you double he picks you apart with passing.

If Doncic is even remotely in that class of good he's going to be a hell of a player

 

[Cheesebeef]

I haven't seen him play enough to know. Based on the videos I'm leery that he's not good enough at any one thing to be in that conversation.

he appears to be a very skilled player but I don't think he's as good a shooter as Tatum is. 43% from 3 in the regular season, 48% overall, 83 from the FT line, for a kid his age at this level that's pretty damn good shooting at that size.

all of this. At least with Steph, we saw him DOMINATE at the collegiate level, putting really mediocre teams completely on his shoulders and felling giants in the tourney. And he was dynamic as a shooter/play maker making everyone around him better.

 

[Cheesebeef]

True but the exceptions happen to be some of the best ever. Larry Bird is another such exception. So if they’re saying Doncic is such an exception, gotta hope he’s Nash/Bird good.

Right... but Bird DOMINATED in college, had legit size for his position, was already a great rebounder and shooter. So, yes he's the exception but when looking at Doncic most of even his ardent supporters cop to him being a jack of all trades, master of none. And that plus not great athleticism is a combo that really scares me about him.

 

[Mainstreet]

This would leave questions about Trae Young unless Stephen Curry had much better teammates.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the Celtics will go with a lineup featuring Kyrie at PG, Jaylen, Hayward, and Tatum as the forwards/wings, and Horford at Center. They seem to do best with 3 wings on the floor and so long as they have a big body inside they can get away with it. Horford isn't ideal for that but he has been able to hold down the position quite well in Boston. That is in the East though and playing Embiid will test how good he is. They've been looking to replace him for a while, or bring in someone who is a stronger inside presence and move Horford to PF. The Celtics are overflowing with talent right now and Stevens finds a way to make it work. He has Marcus Morris playing well, and better than Markieff, while primarily playing "PF" if you had to assign a position to him. Markieff was always the better brother up until this season and it wasn't really much of a contest before either. Markieff's game hasn't declined much either but Stevens has Marcus rebounding and playing defense, which they both struggled to do here and since they've been gone.

This makes more sense than Jaylen Brown turning into Draymond Green.

Maybe down the road.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This would leave questions about Trae Young unless Stephen Curry had much better teammates.

I’ve got questions there also but I do know he’s got PG handles and can shoot the three.

But his D will be a problem, full stop, no question.