I keep seeing trade Marion posts....

[creed]

If Marion is overpaid its not by more than a couple million and that not worth crying over. Marion ranks #10 in the NBA in Total Efficiency Points which isnt too shabby. He's a young highly productive player and we could do FAR worse believe me.

Trade Marion? Not interested unless Zarko becomes a consistant force and we can score a quality Center out of trading Marion.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by creed
If Marion is overpaid its not by more than a couple million and that not worth crying over. Marion ranks #10 in the NBA in Total Efficiency Points which isnt too shabby. He's a young highly productive player and we could do FAR worse believe me.

Trade Marion? Not interested unless Zarko becomes a consistant force and we can score a quality Center out of trading Marion.

I agree (I'd take T-Mac or Kolbe too). The Suns main problem is that they do not have a top 15 center. The only guy I can imagine the Suns being able to get (next summer) for Marion and picks is Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Cavs) and he is awful on defense and has a history of injuries.

 

[TigToad]

This thread kills me

I don't understand this perception of Marion. Marion isn't our second best player, he's our best player. He's the guy you build this team around. He plays very good defense, something this team doesn't do all that well. Marbury I'm iffy on, but is certainly one of the top 5 or 8 point guards. Stoudemire just needs time and health... the more Suns games I watch, and I watch most of them, the more I think Casey Jacobson is our SG of the future.

We have most if not all of the pieces we need, its just gotta be brought together as a team...

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Re: This thread kills me

Originally posted by TigToad
I don't understand this perception of Marion. Marion isn't our second best player, he's our best player. He's the guy you build this team around. He plays very good defense, something this team doesn't do all that well. Marbury I'm iffy on, but is certainly one of the top 5 or 8 point guards. Stoudemire just needs time and health... the more Suns games I watch, and I watch most of them, the more I think Casey Jacobson is our SG of the future.

We have most if not all of the pieces we need, its just gotta be brought together as a team...

...........

I would like you to name all the point guards that you rank better than Marbury.

I'll try.

Kidd (Debatable, but everyone has an infatuation with him, although that appears to be wanning this season)

Welp, there you go.

Payton - Still good, but getting to be very old.

Davis - Awesome talent, but this is only the second year he has done anything great. He has weight problems, and injuries.

Nash - Great player, but not durable. Marbury beats him in every facet.

Parker - To young.



You don't build around a player like Marion. He becomes your X Factor. The guy who will fill whatever need the team has. You build around a player that commands double teams, can break down any defender to get a shot, will lead the team in the locker room and who has the desire to win.

Marion just isn't a good enough offensive player to be a franchise guy. Plain and simple.

 

[Errntknght]

We need to look at what type of players we need to make a team that fits together and what kind of money we'll be paying them, if we're thinking of trading someone like Marion. For instance, I'd say that players like T-Mac and Kobe are terrible fits alongside Marbury because they, like Marbs, need the ball in their hands to be most effective. And their salaries are prohibitive as well - they figure to make about 1.5-2X Shawn's salary.

The way I see it something like this: Marbury at PG and our #1 scoring option off dribble penetration. That requires a high post center or PF setting screens. Amare at PF is a strong threat in the low post, so he doesn't make sense as the high post guy leaving the center in that role. That puts a lot of structure into our primary offensive set - we have some space down low where a SG/SF could post up at times or one of them could be working the baseline from corner to corner. The other one will be spotting up out front.

To me it doesn't make sense to have something as threatening as Stephon working a high pick and roll without exploiting it fully - which to my mind means using it a significant amount of time as a decoy. As soon as the team sets up to run that play the defense starts distorting to defend it so we should run a number of other plays from that alignment to take advantage of the distortions. In the long run it makes the pick & roll more effective because teams will have to stop gearing up for it so much.

Assuming the team started doing that, another requirement is forced - we have to have a SF or SG who is good at playmaking being the one who will take the pass from Marbs and operate the other plays. I also think this rules out posting up since that usually requires considerable maneuvering to make the entry pass. Someone mobile and quick working the baseline, on the other hand, fits perfectly - the center has been sucked out high to defend the pick and roll so it's a great time to attack from the baseline.

Marion fits very well into this scheme of things as the baseline guy, though to tell the truth I can't think of many schemes where he wouldn't be a big plus working the baseline. It's hard to say how Zarko would fit in that role, though, of course, he'd probably do very well as the secondary playmaker. Anyway, if one were planning at Z at SF and trading Shawn then we'd need to get a SG who would be a threat operating on the baseline... wait that would be trading Shawn for someone almost identical. How sensible is that?

 

[George O'Brien]

Re: Re: This thread kills me

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
...........

I would like you to name all the point guards that you rank better than Marbury.

I'll try.

Kidd (Debatable, but everyone has an infatuation with him, although that appears to be wanning this season)

Welp, there you go.

Payton - Still good, but getting to be very old.

Davis - Awesome talent, but this is only the second year he has done anything great. He has weight problems, and injuries.

Nash - Great player, but not durable. Marbury beats him in every facet.

Parker - To young.



You don't build around a player like Marion. He becomes your X Factor. The guy who will fill whatever need the team has. You build around a player that commands double teams, can break down any defender to get a shot, will lead the team in the locker room and who has the desire to win.

Marion just isn't a good enough offensive player to be a franchise guy. Plain and simple.

Nash is not very good on defense and cannot take over the game like Stephon. Parker looked helpless trying to guard Marbury.

In a year or so, I expect Amare to be the team's franchise player. In that context, Marion will be even more valuable as a great third option on offense, defensive stopper, and defender. So unless Marion is traded for a franchise player, I can't see why anyone would want to get rid of him.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Re: Re: Re: This thread kills me

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Nash is not very good on defense and cannot take over the game like Stephon. Parker looked helpless trying to guard Marbury.

In a year or so, I expect Amare to be the team's franchise player. In that context, Marion will be even more valuable as a great third option on offense, defensive stopper, and defender. So unless Marion is traded for a franchise player, I can't see why anyone would want to get rid of him.

exactly my point. Although unless Amare makes huge strides to close the season, next season may be a bit early for him to be the "franchise" player.

Although I guess Randolph is in his 3rd year now.

 

[George O'Brien]

Re: Re: Re: Re: This thread kills me

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
exactly my point. Although unless Amare makes huge strides to close the season, next season may be a bit early for him to be the "franchise" player.

Although I guess Randolph is in his 3rd year now.

Plus Randolph had a year of college. Last year (his second season) Randolph only played 16.9 minutes per game and only started 11 games.

Jermaine O'Neal did not really do much in his four years in Portland. Garnett did not start putting up all-star type numbers until his third year.

It is hard for inside guys coming out of HS to become super stars over night. Chambers is still developing, Diop is just beginning to show promise,and K Brown has not come through yet.

Duncan had four years of college and most immediate impact inside guys have at least two years.

Amare has an awful lot to learn, but he is already a pretty good player. In a year or so he could be awsome.

 

[SirStefan32]

No way in heck are Davis, Nash or even Payton better than Marbury. Kidd and Marbury are pretty close, but Nash, Davis and Payton- I don't think so.

And by the way- TRADE MARION!

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by SirStefan32

And by the way- TRADE MARION!

For whom?

If you want to just give him away, I'm sure Utah would take him in a heartbeat (they are way under cap). This makes not sense to me, but at least we would know what you mean.

On the other hand, if you have someone in mind we can evaluate whether it might work. No one is beyond possibly being traded, but teams don't win championships by giving away their top players just to save money.

 

[cly2tw]

Trade Marion away, just for the cap!

As many pointed out, in 2-3 years, Amare will be a franchise player, while Steph already is one. For a sound team, two franchise players with complementary strength are enough. We don't need to have a third one, not to mention that Marion is not worth the money he gets and certainly won't get you a franchise player.

People are too much infatuated with his stats when he is the second option on offense, without being a go-to guy. I say, give me Maggette or Harpring, not to mention Artest or Kirelenko, as the starting SF, the complementarity of the player talent on this team will improve. If a team needs 10 rpg from its starting SF, the composition of player talent on this team is screwed up anyway.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Errntknght
Marion fits very well into this scheme of things as the baseline guy, though to tell the truth I can't think of many schemes where he wouldn't be a big plus working the baseline. It's hard to say how Zarko would fit in that role, though, of course, he'd probably do very well as the secondary playmaker. Anyway, if one were planning at Z at SF and trading Shawn then we'd need to get a SG who would be a threat operating on the baseline... wait that would be trading Shawn for someone almost identical. How sensible is that?

Errntknght,

your posts have always been insightful. I have one minor caveat to your reasoning, though. Your analysis describes an "ideal situation". In practice, any offensive plan can be defended with or without decors, at least theoretically. How well it works is to a huge amount up to the other team's defense. When the defense is tight, what Steph's penetration might get you is just a slightly better chance for the pass receiver to operate his "own" thing, a little more space or maybe just the "wrong guy" guarding the receiver. Your shots or layup drives are still contested. The disadvantage of Marion is that he needs way too much more 'space' at the receiving end of the pass to be effective, compared to the likes of Artest, Maggette who are proficent one-on-one scorers that can utilize the slighest "combat" advantage to score. And Kirelenko and Harpring are smarter players with much better shot mechanics, meaning they won't have the little space advantage negated, which Steph created via penetration, not as much as a Marion does. Both of the latter are better at what you want Marion to do, roaming the baseline. You can definitely get much cheaper replacement with that quality on the SG position, say, like Brent Barry.

It's all about fits and substitutability given a certain cap budget.

 

[creed]

Originally posted by cly2tw
Trade Marion away, just for the cap!

As many pointed out, in 2-3 years, Amare will be a franchise player, while Steph already is one. For a sound team, two franchise players with complementary strength are enough. We don't need to have a third one, not to mention that Marion is not worth the money he gets and certainly won't get you a franchise player.

People are too much infatuated with his stats when he is the second option on offense, without being a go-to guy. I say, give me Maggette or Harpring, not to mention Artest or Kirelenko, as the starting SF, the complementarity of the player talent on this team will improve. If a team needs 10 rpg from its starting SF, the composition of player talent on this team is screwed up anyway.

Are you even serious?? Someone tell me this is a joke!

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by cly2tw
Trade Marion away, just for the cap!

What do you mean "just for the cap"

With Marburys new contract, and assuming that Amare gets maxed (that seems to be the suns trend) that will be like 30 million in committed salary between two people. That leaves under 20 million dollars to pay the other 10 players on the active roster. I dont think we will have everyone making 2 million a season.

The suns will not be under the cap. It is very hard for teams with 2 max contracts to fall under the cap.

Now with the known fact the luxary tax will be killed by the next CBA, there will not be a penalty for being over the cap.




So, in all honesty guys, if the Cs are still willing to write other people checks to build a winner, who the hell cares how much Marion makes?

The suns will not be under the salary cap for a very very long time. As long as the organization still puts other role players on the team, it won't matter one bit to me what our financial situation is. Judging by the fact we are #6 in the league in total salary this year, I think that proves the Cs will pay when need be.

 

[Errntknght]

Excellent posts cly2tw. I agree that a baseline player like Harpring or Kirilenko would be a great fit for this team. If people were talking about trading Shawn for guys like that I'd have more patience with the 'trade Marion' chatter. Maggette might do but so far he is more of a slashing wing than a baseline player - he certains doesn't shy away from contact the way Shawn does. But Shawn is on this team and his quickness and jumping ability would serve him well working the baseline. I'm really more concerned about him having the stomach for the job than his low, slow shot release. In fact, Shawn does have a high release, one handed shot that he uses close in and hits it consistently. Also he jumps so quick he gets his low release shot off often when you'd think he didn't have the space. He'd need a good bit of coaching because he doesn't seem to have the instincts for it - though he did play more on the baseline as a rookie and was deadly on those chippie jump shots.

One of the things I like about him working the baseline is that he doesn't give up any of the best parts of his current game. His best drives originate from the corners and he's going to be cycling regularly to them. I don't have the stats to back it up but I think he shoots 3's better from the corner than elsewhere. Though we haven't seen it much this year, one of his best plays in the past was curling up from a baseline screen for a jumper around the FT line. If he's prowling the baseline most of the time he's certainly going to be frequently in position for that play. Amare is down there to screen for him and our high post center could drop down to set them as well. If either screen setter's defender moves as much as foot to help against Shawn our guy is going to get inside position with a shot about to go up. Best case, Amare or the C is left open enough for a direct pass.

The benefits of Shawn playing the baseline are numerous - more short range shots for him, more offensive rebounds, more trips to the FT line. I can see it benefitting Amare as well - his man is going to be tempted to help out on Shawn being the closest other defender much of the time - here again use the decoy principle to get Amare a little better position, too. Shawn would also set picks for Amare - maybe get him a bit of daylight or a defensive switch so Amare is going against a SF. If they don't defend it just right, Marion may get an opening out of it.

Many people don't realize how valuable a moving threat on the baseline is - other defenders have to watch their man and the ball out front so they can be in perfect position to help against the baseline threat and not know it. Watch Harpring at work for a while and you'll see how often that happens. Of course, if they atart paying attention to the baseline guy, they compromise their ofther defensive responsibilities to an extent.

Cly2tw, I'm not claiming any of the "plays" in this post or the last are indefensible but they all do give the defensive players more things to worry about and force more little compromises and opportunities for mistakes. The Suns now rely almost exclusively on frontal assaults of one kind or another - Marbs driving, Amare going solo down low, JJ and Shawn probing off the dribble. They have lots of successes, too, but it's not winning basketball - last year we saw it at its best and it still wasn't good enough. Not even close - last years wins against the Spurs were an illusion, as we've learned this year.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
For whom?

If you want to just give him away, I'm sure Utah would take him in a heartbeat (they are way under cap). This makes not sense to me, but at least we would know what you mean.

On the other hand, if you have someone in mind we can evaluate whether it might work. No one is beyond possibly being traded, but teams don't win championships by giving away their top players just to save money.

Didn't you see the smile face- " "

 

[Forrestham]

I don't think we should make any drastic trades right now. I would like to see how the team performs once Amare and Z both play regularly before coming to that conclusion. Z needs to play 30 minutes a game when he returns. Time could be at the 3, 4 or 5 position. Marion may be expendible but I would only him for a comparable player.

 

[cly2tw]

Errntknght,

thanks for your kind words and for your, as usual, excellent analysis. Given my assessment of Marion, I think it's hard to trade him away anyway. Your analysis does give us a more optimistical perspective for the team, unlike my half-empty-glass sentiment. I'm just extremely disappointed that with the natural talent Marion posseses he stopped developing way too early as a basketball player. Maybe it's because he got success too early in his career, maybe it's due to lack of good coaching so far. I really hope DA could turn him around and have him at least acquire the ball smartness Harpring and Kirilenko have to optimally utilize/create spacing on the court.

 

[slinslin]

Btw, in the last Dallas-Milwaukee game, the Bucks announcers called Nash a very good defender.

Man TJ Ford simply can't score. They are backing off of him , they let him get into the paint and just look to cover everyone else until he gets too close.

It was pretty funny how Steve Nash backed down TJ Ford and schooled him in the post.
I mean STEVE NASH!

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by cly2tw
Errntknght,

thanks for your kind words and for your, as usual, excellent analysis. Given my assessment of Marion, I think it's hard to trade him away anyway. Your analysis does give us a more optimistical perspective for the team, unlike my half-empty-glass sentiment. I'm just extremely disappointed that with the natural talent Marion posseses he stopped developing way too early as a basketball player. Maybe it's because he got success too early in his career, maybe it's due to lack of good coaching so far. I really hope DA could turn him around and have him at least acquire the ball smartness Harpring and Kirilenko have to optimally utilize/create spacing on the court.

I'm not sure Marion has regressed. I think the offense regressed under FJ and Marion has been a victim. Another problem is that Stephon seems incapable of making the "alley oop" pass, which hurts Shawn. Some of the passes by Penny show how effective that play can be.

I am concerned that Marion is so bothered by contact. When he bulked up over the summer, it was supposed to be make him tougher but all it did was screw up his shot mechanics. Except for shooting three's, his shooting is back but he still doesn't finish at the basket like he should. It is takes courage to accept the kind of beating that Stephon gets, but it is mostly mental.

 

[Chaplin]

But come on, let's face it, the Shawn Marion we've seen in the past 2 weeks or so is a totally different player than the one we saw at the beginning of the season.

This "trade Marion" stuff is just nonsense.

Seems to me, since Penny is playing better and it's hard to criticize him as much, the anti-Penny people have moved on to Shawn and he has become the new Penny Hardaway. Right now, statistically, Shawn Marion is earning his contract just fine.

 

[George O'Brien]

I admit I don't understand the "trade Marion" camp. It seems to boil down to insisting that there is someone they like better who has a less expensive contract. So what? It isn't like giving away Marion will magically put one of these guys on the Suns roster. Nor would giving away Marion get the Suns below the cap. It would not mean they could offer more than the mid cap exemption for a free agent.

Marion's situation is different than that of Penny. Penny's contract is so large and his contribution so much smaller, that it would be a great advantage to the Suns if they could pay to unload him. It's not that Penny is dead weight like Googs, it is just the relationship between his contract and his value.

In other posts, I've said that I think Shawn may be over paid by about $2 million a year. On a team with a salry structure that will be over $54 million next summer, I can live with that. Penny is at least $10 to $12 million overpaid. But if they can't unload him, it doesn't mean he shouldn't play.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

Marion's situation is different than that of Penny. Penny's contract is so large and his contribution so much smaller, that it would be a great advantage to the Suns if they could pay to unload him. It's not that Penny is dead weight like Googs, it is just the relationship between his contract and his value.

I never said they are the same player, just that the treatment of both players is similar in that people are basing them on the value of their contract, not their value on the basketball court.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by Chaplin
But come on, let's face it, the Shawn Marion we've seen in the past 2 weeks or so is a totally different player than the one we saw at the beginning of the season.

This "trade Marion" stuff is just nonsense.

Seems to me, since Penny is playing better and it's hard to criticize him as much, the anti-Penny people have moved on to Shawn and he has become the new Penny Hardaway. Right now, statistically, Shawn Marion is earning his contract just fine.

I agree he's been a different player. Perhaps he's now just getting his timing down from the supposed summer layoff.

But, I can still see where the "trade Marion" talk has some validity. Personally, I'd have to have my socks knocked off if I were BC.

The ONLY problems I have with Marion is his court awareness. Too often I've seen him play with blinders on. Few examples...

- He'll give the ball up late on fastbreaks or to the wrong guy.
- He'll take an ill-advised jumper without exploring his other options.
- He'll forget who the "hot" guy is and end up taking the shot himself. He needs to be aware who's in the zone and keep feeding them (Marbury/JJ).
- Dribbles too much one-on-one. No need for him to dribble unless it's beating his guy off the pass or on the fast break.

Marion can do things no other player in the league can do. His game would go the next level if he ever made the game simpler for himself.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by sly fly
I agree he's been a different player. Perhaps he's now just getting his timing down from the supposed summer layoff.

But, I can still see where the "trade Marion" talk has some validity. Personally, I'd have to have my socks knocked off if I were BC.

The ONLY problems I have with Marion is his court awareness. Too often I've seen him play with blinders on. Few examples...

- He'll give the ball up late on fastbreaks or to the wrong guy.
- He'll take an ill-advised jumper without exploring his other options.
- He'll forget who the "hot" guy is and end up taking the shot himself. He needs to be aware who's in the zone and keep feeding them (Marbury/JJ).
- Dribbles too much one-on-one. No need for him to dribble unless it's beating his guy off the pass or on the fast break.

Marion can do things no other player in the league can do. His game would go the next level if he ever made the game simpler for himself.

Is it Marion or is it the coaching?

1. Marion isn't the only Sun that has trouble running the break. They don't get their spacing right, make their passes too early, and fail to pass when the defender is in position. For a team that during training camp was supposed to be focused on running the break, it seems like the entire team still struggles with it.

2. I have been complaining about the excessive number of three point shots being taken by Stephon, JJ, and Shawn all season. Unless the coach takes away the green light, they will keep doing it. It is a team problem.

Last year he was much better shooting three's than he has been this year. I'm guessing that he has a slow release that means he is ineffective when guarded. It is up to the coaching staff to get him to make better shot selection.

3. Failure to get the ball to the "hot hand" has been an endemic problem for the team. Part of the problem is that the Suns offense has always focused on getting the ball to the open man, which is usually someone beyond the three point line.

Getting the ball to the open man is great if the open man is in position to do something with the ball. A lot of teams are able to score in spite of having a player who is not an offensive threat, because they work to get their best scorers open. The Suns have not really done that.

4. The entire Suns team dribbles sideways too much, not just Shawn.

The Suns offense under Frank Johnson was built around Stephon running the pick and roll/pick and drive plays. Most of his assists came off his drives to the basket to outside players in a position to take jump shots. Oppoents figured out that the Suns cannot run that offense against a zone, but FJ never adjusted. D'Antoni is trying to make up for a wasted training camp and mostly wasted first month of the season.

There are two philosophies of coaching. Design a system around the talents of the players or get players that fit the style of the coach. A key for the Suns is to get Marion (and you could substitute several other names) to focus on what he is best at, rather than what he feels like doing.