Is Kyler Murray the answer at QB for next year and beyond?

[Chopper0080]

Do you mean the decision to keep Murray should hinge primarily on if one of the QBs in the 2024 draft can actually be "the guy"?

Pretty much. I think the best argument against taking a QB is that you don't feel the QB who is available is a top prospect. I also feel this is the argument for drafting a QB. You feel the QB available is a top prospect.

 

[Chopper0080]

Not for next season and building a team. It's definitely worse to dump Kyler. You will also cut players like DJ or Budda. Bring in someone like Minshew as a bridge and you wind up with another season just like this one. Now, you have two years and what you have established is a culture of losing, guys that don't believe in their coaches. It's not fair to Gannon.

Try to build the team to a competitive level around Kyler. Hopefully he surprises by flashing back to 2021 form. If he doesn't, now you look at how to get the next QB in the draft and you don't gut the team.

Dumping Kyler now is stupid.

If Kyler plays like he currently is, you are going to lose the team anyways. That was the issue with punting the season to begin with. You create a narrower path to success because you have started with a terrible season and a culture of losing. If Kyler continues to suck next year (and it looks like he will) you are stuck having to draft a QB in 2025 (potentially having to give up draft picks to do so) and then forcing Gannon to try and win games with a rookie QB after two bad seasons. Then when you fire Gannon, you are hiring a new HC in 2026 who inherits a highly drafted QB he didn't choose. You essentially become the Bears. Personally. I think the best way to make this turnaround work is by winning games in 2025 at the latest. I have an advantage in that mindset as I believe Drake Maye is a player who can do that. My struggle with the opposing (and likely) plan is that I don't believe Kyler can.

And as I said, it really comes down to 2 things.

1 - Can Monti and Gannon be good at their jobs?

2 - Can this form of Kyler win football games?

Also, I said this after the Cardinals decided to punt the season. Only a loser franchise thinks the solution to losing is more losing.

 

[Chopper0080]

Going from 4 wins to 3 wins is hardly a significant regression. And it’s only your opinion that we know exactly what we already knew and got no better. I’ll leave that opinion to the people that were hired to put this plan in place and coach these guys every day. A process is ongoing, with the goal of creating sustainable success. The beginning of that process is NEVER a pretty one. I expect progress is 2024 and even more beyond that. Applying bandaids every year was attempted by this franchise for decades upon decades & it never was sustainable. It was long overdue for a different approach. Complain all you want, but this is the plan going forward for now.

I feel like Arians did a pretty good job at the beginning and throughout the process. He also did use bandaids.

One of my biggest concerns is that we punted a season and don't really have any answers to show for it.

Is Monti "good"? I don't know. His plan was to be bad which I struggle with. He punted free agency. We traded back in the draft, and then back up in the draft to grab an OT who was the first off the board and is not clearly the best OT in the draft class after one season. He also made a couple questionable decisions but also did snag some decent bottom priced players.

Is Gannon "good"? I don't know. He is a little odd, but seemed to try to connect with players. The team is one of the most penalized teams in the league. His offense is not good. His defense is not good. He has made some questionable in game decisions if the goal is to win games.

Is Kyler "good"? I don't know. I was told a prototypical NFL offense would benefit him, but it hasn't. He doesn't get a lot of help, but he also misses some easy throws. He isn't deceptive with his eyes, and doesn't consistently throw with timing and rhythm. His deep ball has not come back, and accuracy in general has declined. He is still terrible in the two minute drill.

What is our identity? I don't know. I feel like Gannon said they goal was to be a physical team, that ran the ball, hit explosive plays on offense, tackled well, and prevented explosive plays on defense. I feel like we try to be physical, but aren't. We do run the ball, but sometimes most successful when down by multiple scores. We seem to miss a lot of tackles and give up a lot of explosive plays. Is it the players? Is it the coaching? Just tough to have any definitive answers.

 

[DVontel]

What are you guys’ definition of a “rebuild”

Like, I thought what the Detroit Lions have done the past 3 seasons would easily classify as that, but I guess not to some of you guys.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Guys starting week 17 in the NFL this year, or week one starters?

Pretty sure I could with the latter; Les sure with the former. People doubt Shanahan at their peril.



LOL. The 49ers have a pretty difficult culture. Aiyuk and Deebo have been in the doghouse at times. It’s just that winning is a tremendous disinfectant.


It’s not a big gamble, because the stakes are relatively low and the downside is you get a second QB for a while. Mason Rudolph just lead the Steelers to a big win. You just have to be able to dedicate the time to train up a young QB.

Use whatever QBs you exist in the nfl this season. Even with purdys stinker last night I’m confident in my statement. Take it for what it’s worth but Aikman said Purdy isn’t a game manager and anyone who’s ever played QB would agree with him.

 

[Stout]

Going from 4 wins to 3 wins is hardly a significant regression. And it’s only your opinion that we know exactly what we already knew and got no better. I’ll leave that opinion to the people that were hired to put this plan in place and coach these guys every day. A process is ongoing, with the goal of creating sustainable success. The beginning of that process is NEVER a pretty one. I expect progress is 2024 and even more beyond that. Applying bandaids every year was attempted by this franchise for decades upon decades & it never was sustainable. It was long overdue for a different approach. Complain all you want, but this is the plan going forward for now.

So, the shut up and support the front office at all costs response? Gotcha. From punting on FA to the multiple open and known mistakes Monti has already made, that is not an approach I will follow on a message board.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's all I'm saying.

There is a huge gulf between solid and Brady. A huge gulf between solid and Mahomes.

No one is saying he’s the best QB ever. Lol. Maybe you need to adjust your benchmarks.

How many “game managers” have ever been considered legitimate candidates for mvp?

By your definition it seems you would’ve considered montana a game manager. I mean he had comparable talent surrounding him and no special physical attributes.

 

[Chopper0080]

What are you guys’ definition of a “rebuild”

Like, I thought what the Detroit Lions have done the past 3 seasons would easily classify as that, but I guess not to some of you guys.

Establish an identity. Add players who support that. Evaluate players from the previous regime to see who fits. Solidify the QB position. Add talent as needed in whatever ways are needed.

 

[slanidrac16]

It's an interesting and fair point about Wilson. Truly. He did have at least one chance yesterday to make a play on the ball, the deep sideline pass, but couldn't come up with the catch. I mean if Greg Dortch is making plays in this offense, then surely Michael Wilson will make some too? I guess we'll see.

I won't belabor the point any further other than to say that I can imagine a universe where we draft MJH, upgrade LG, and even add a top 30 WR through FA, but the offense is still not top eight in the NFL. Where we have to make a difficult decision at QB going into the 2025 draft.

You might be right, but if we add the weapons and we still suck we will probably have the answers to why.
However, Some will blame the OC!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm confident that if we:

1. Improve our Oline some from what it is now,
2. Add one top 10 NFL receiver
3. And also add another top 30 NFL receiver

The offense will be good enough to win 12 games.

That would be some offseason for this franchise.

 

[DVontel]

Establish an identity. Add players who support that. Evaluate players from the previous regime to see who fits. Solidify the QB position. Add talent as needed in whatever ways are needed.

I’m curious what Detroit fans were saying in 2021 & if it mirrors responses here.

 

[Chopper0080]

That would be some offseason for this franchise.

I agree and I don't know that it is realistic.

1 - I don't believe there is a top 10 WR in FA. So, that requires you to draft a WR who is top 10 in his rookie year. I don't feel that is realistic.

2 - Improving our offensive line is pretty vague. Improve LG? C? One of the other three spots? And what players are you getting to do that?

3 - I do think a top 30 WR is feasible, but top 30 in what? Trey McBride is not a top receiver in yardage. Thinking that this offense can support new and improved Trey McBride along with two players who will outproduce his 2023 season of 743 yards is a stretch.

 

[kerouac9]

What are you guys’ definition of a “rebuild”

Like, I thought what the Detroit Lions have done the past 3 seasons would easily classify as that, but I guess not to some of you guys.

What is yours? Detroit replaced their offensive coordinator after Campbell's first season. They were 3-3 in their last six games. They were showing signs of progress after that first year. Not stagnation, which we have here.

Use whatever QBs you exist in the nfl this season. Even with purdys stinker last night I’m confident in my statement. Take it for what it’s worth but Aikman said Purdy isn’t a game manager and anyone who’s ever played QB would agree with him.

Tua
Goff
Mahomes
Dak
Lawrence
Stafford
Stroud
Jordan Love
Justin Herbert
Kirk Cousins
Joe Burrow
Aaron Rodgers

These are all guys I feel super-confident would be very good with the 2023 49ers. I'm less sure about Derek Carr, Bryce Young, Geno Smith, Kenny Pickett, and Desmond Ridder, but I think it's possible half of them work out.

NFL QB position has kind of been hollowed out this year, hasn't it? I think you could take any "traditional" quarterback and have him run Shanahan's offense pretty efficiently, but there aren't a ton of traditional dropback passers in the NFL today.

 

[CardNots]

Going from 4 wins to 3 wins is hardly a significant regression. And it’s only your opinion that we know exactly what we already knew and got no better. I’ll leave that opinion to the people that were hired to put this plan in place and coach these guys every day. A process is ongoing, with the goal of creating sustainable success. The beginning of that process is NEVER a pretty one. I expect progress is 2024 and even more beyond that. Applying bandaids every year was attempted by this franchise for decades upon decades & it never was sustainable. It was long overdue for a different approach. Complain all you want, but this is the plan going forward for now.

Well stated PA

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Going from 4 wins to 3 wins is hardly a significant regression. And it’s only your opinion that we know exactly what we already knew and got no better. I’ll leave that opinion to the people that were hired to put this plan in place and coach these guys every day. A process is ongoing, with the goal of creating sustainable success. The beginning of that process is NEVER a pretty one. I expect progress is 2024 and even more beyond that. Applying bandaids every year was attempted by this franchise for decades upon decades & it never was sustainable. It was long overdue for a different approach. Complain all you want, but this is the plan going forward for now.

I always thought this would be the hardest point of the process. 2-13 and the darksiders on ten. Hang in there PA.

 

[kerouac9]

Establish an identity. Add players who support that. Evaluate players from the previous regime to see who fits. Solidify the QB position. Add talent as needed in whatever ways are needed.

Remember how emotional Dan Campbell got during the eight-game losing streak Detroit started that 2021 season with? Crying at the podium about how hard the guys were working, they were going to get a win, stick with us, etc.

Very little of that energy from cold-fish Jonathan Gannon. Some of it comes from that passion not being in his character, which is fine. Some of it is having an institutional indifference to winning in 2023. No one thought the 2021 Lions were trying to lose.

 

[slanidrac16]

I keep hearing we have so many holes to fill.
With that being said we aren’t going to be able to fill those holes in one year.

The biggest fear I have is going into 2025 with the same problem at qb and having to give up draft capital to get a decent qb or sign a free agent. This goes against everything MO ‘s apparent philosophy.

So, why not draft a qb? With our second pick in the first round we take a wr and add a free agent wr. Kyler gets his weapons with a chance to excel. We have insurance should Kyler suck or get hurt, which either one is possible. And maybe, MAYBE, the rookie qb could actually play like Stroud and outperform the incumbent. MAYBE, it would light a fire under Kyler. And if it did Maye or Williams would easily recoup draft capital. Or Kyler would recoup draft capital more than he would right now.

And we still have free agency a gazillions draft picks to add to the defense.
Yes, I know, we’d be passing on MHJ. But as things are as of today would adding him be the missing piece to suddenly allow Kyler to “ blossom”? I don’t think a majority of the people on this forum believe that.

I also believe if we weren’t tied to Kyler with this ridiculous contract MOST would be screaming for us to use our first pick for a qb.

It appears We have two apparent problems on why this offense sucks, WR’s and, at this time, qb play. Get the wr’s solves one. Drafting a qb is an insurance policy should qb continues to be a problem.

 

[phillycard]

I’m curious what Detroit fans were saying in 2021 & if it mirrors responses here.

FWIW, I loved the Campbell hire for them and thought they got the coach right. Didn't know how good it would work ultimately but I was doubly sold when I watched their Hard Knocks. Could care less about Lions football but it was something about him that had me believing they would turn it around. I will not repeat my incessant complaining about Gannon and what I think of him personally, but I would be willing to trust a coach like DC based on what he brought to the table the minute he spoke at their podium.

 

[DVontel]

What is yours?

Acknowledging we’re not close to competing serious so a big teardown. Acclimate a bunch of picks while being high enough to draft blue-chip players. Draft premium positions with those picks. Not overplay yourself or the process.

They were 3-3 in their last six games. They were showing signs of progress after that first year. Not stagnation, which we have here.

They won 3 games dude. How many games have we currently won so far?

 

[DVontel]

With that being said we aren’t going to be able to fill those holes in one year.

The fact you keep repeating this is hilarious to me lmao

While it’s not 100% possible, that doesn’t mean Monti shouldn’t try to fill those holes to the best he can.

 

[Chopper0080]

I’m curious what Detroit fans were saying in 2021 & if it mirrors responses here.

Good question.

They had the bite their knee caps culture instilled.

The Lions won 3 of their last 6 games.

Goff with minimal talent was 332/494, 67.2% compl, 19 TDs, 8 ints. 231.8 yards per game.

Sewell and St Brown were both instant draft hits.

They signed Charles Harris in FA and acquired Michael Brockers in the Stafford trade.

Their offense/defense rankings were equally bad.

Kyler Murray looking like dogshit and winning our games at the beginning of the season vs the end are probably the two biggest differences.

 

[slanidrac16]

The fact you keep repeating this is hilarious to me lmao

While it’s not 100% possible, that doesn’t mean Monti shouldn’t try to fill those holes to the best he can.

I DONT agree about filling the holes. Should have been clearer on that. I think we can do enough this off season to compete for a playoff spot.
However, some believe we need to add weapons to get Kyler up to snuff. Some believe it won’t matter and Kyler is who he is.

I’m saying, let’s draft a qb as an insurance policy. If Kyler blossoms awesome! It will be a nice problem to have. If he doesn’t or gets injured maybe we have his heir apparent on the bench.

 

[Chopper0080]

Acknowledging we’re not close to competing serious so a big teardown. Acclimate a bunch of picks while being high enough to draft blue-chip players. Draft premium positions with those picks. Not overplay yourself or the process.

They won 3 games dude. How many games have we currently won so far?

You aren't wrong, but what part of the season you win games does matter in terms of the feeling heading into the following year.

 

[DVontel]

f Kyler blossoms awesome! It will be a nice problem to have.

No it wouldn’t because we still would have a massive hole at the position we bypassed.

 

[slanidrac16]

No it wouldn’t because we still would have a massive hole at the position we bypassed.

What hole would that be that we couldn’t fill with draft picks and free agency.
We draft a qb ( your choice). We draft a Wr with our second pick(Nabers? Odunze) and sign a wr like Gabe Davis( example).
One free agent at this point that won’t break the bank. A top flight Wr via the draft and an insurance policy surrounding Kyler’s performance.

We still have 10 picks and free agency, June cuts etc.

For the sake of example, where are we next year at this time if we build the team and Kyler indeed sucks and we win 6 games? We are in no man’s land and scrambling for a Qb.

Draft a damn Qb. Push Kyler and if he excels we now have a wonderful problem on our hands. Two QB’s with huge trade value.

Unless of course, you believe Tune is the guy.