Kevin Garnett?

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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061122

An SOS for KG's Career
Bill Simmons

Kevin Garnett should have flipped out by now. And I'm not talking about a simple tantrum. Why isn't he acting more disruptively than the schoolkids in "The Wire?" He should arrive for home games wearing a sweatshirt that reads I HATE IT HERE. He should give Dwane Casey the nickname Expletive Deleted. He should call Marko Jaric, Ricky Davis and Mark Blount Loser No. 1, Loser No. 2 and Loser No. 3 and refer to Kevin McHale only as the Guy Who Ruined My Life. He should be looking to get whistled for a "flagrant nine" foul and lying on scorers' tables on the road praying for a drunken spectator to lob a beer at him so he can break out his best Artest moves. He should hire Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell impersonators to go with him everywhere, just so he can tell anyone who asks that he wants a reminder of the one season when he didn't want to kill somebody.

All right, that last idea is a little ridiculous -- no one on the planet could begin to resemble either Cassell or Spree -- but you get the picture. KG's basketball career has become a borderline American tragedy. Here's one of the greatest big men ever, one of the fiercest competitors in any sport, someone who could finish his career with historic scoring and rebounding numbers ... and yet we have absolutely no clue how good he really is. He's played with, by my count, only six quality players in his 12 seasons: Joe Smith, Stephon Marbury, Terrell Brandon, Cassell, Sprewell and Wally Szczerbiak. His only "decent" coach was Flip Saunders, who is currently running the Pistons into the ground. The guy making the player moves has always been the memorably incompetent McHale, and KG's only owner, Glen Taylor, famously squandered four first-rounders by illegally negotiating Smith's ill-conceived, cap-violating contract.

How badly has this team been mismanaged? It hasn't drafted a quality starter in seven seasons. It essentially traded Cassell for Jaric and threw in a first-round pick. It has surrounded KG with career losers and bad-attitude guys like Davis, Blount, Troy Hudson and Eddie Griffin. If there's a master plan, it seems to be: "Let's kill our cap space, squander as many picks as possible and see if KG snaps." If you remove Mark Madsen from the current roster, KG has more career playoff minutes than everyone else combined.

He isn't a young dude anymore, either. Do you realize he's 30? That this is his 12th season? That he has played more than 900 NBA games (including playoffs)? KG might be 30, but if NBA years were like dog years, he'd be, well, pretty damn old.

It's impossible not to feel sorry for him. Always one of the most intense players in the league, Garnett's emotion has morphed into something much more grim, as if he's fighting the urge to pull a Kermit Washington on someone, anyone. Seeing him in person, you can practically hear the clock ticking, like he's an aging single woman with rumbling ovaries. You can see the desperation on his face, the frustration, and almost hear the anguished inner monologue: "My career is wasting away." He's the most tragic figure in the league, a superstar buried on a perpetually impotent team, a loyal player who can't stand losing but is stuck with selfish guys and keeps finding himself walking off in defeat. His saga is the saddest subplot of the 2006-07 season.

And few fans seem to give a crap.

Well, I give a crap. To be fair, though, I don't care as much about KG as I do about his place in history. I want to know how good he is. Don't we need an answer? After old friend Paul Shirley was released by the Timberwolves before the start of the season, he sent me a gushing e-mail about KG's everyday brilliance that said if KG had played on a contender his entire career, "people would speak of him as a candidate for best player ever." Will that end up being KG's legacy: the coulda-shoulda-woulda star who ended up the Ernie Banks or Barry Sanders of basketball?

I can't help thinking that in one sense he deserves some of the blame. Yes, he's one of the best power forwards ever. I rank him fourth, behind Tim Duncan, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, and just ahead of McHale and D.C. from Fast Break. And we know he can produce in the clutch from that monster 2004 MVP season that culminated in a sublime 32-point, 21-rebound Game 7 against the Kings. We can also agree, his career would have been different if he had somehow switched places with Duncan.

But maybe KG is too passionate for his own good. By all accounts, he's so wound up before games, it affects everyone around him; he wouldn't even allow anyone to listen to music in the locker room before Cassell arrived. He's not above punching teammates in practices. And he's famous for yelping ferociously after big plays, clenching his fists and screaming toward the ceiling like a WWE wrestler. He's never learned to adapt his game to the situation; he plays the same in a mid-November blowout and a deciding playoff game, which explains why he seemed spent during the 2004 conference finals against the Lakers. That was his longest season by far -- seven months and exactly 100 games -- and in classic KG fashion, he averaged 24-14-5 in the regular season and an almost identical 24-15-5 in the playoffs. Superstars like Duncan know when to dominate and when to keep something in reserve for big moments. KG plays only in fifth gear. Of course, that nonstop fervor has always been his most admirable quality, right up there with his insistence on passing out of double- and triple-teams (even if he's finding crummy outside shooters and inadvertently hurting his chances). Along with Steve Nash, he's the ultimate team player. Which makes this whole thing such a shame. I watched the Timberwolves lose on consecutive nights recently and realized two things. First, they don't have an above-average player other than KG. And second, KG's body language, especially after Peja Stojakovic's game-winning three, makes him seem almost resigned to his fate, like an unhappy husband who can't stomach the thought of a divorce because he doesn't want to hurt his children. It's depressing to watch.

In his shoes, maybe you or I would have sabotaged our situation already, but that's what is great about KG: Instead of quitting on a lost cause to force Minnesota's hand, he just keeps busting his butt and waiting to be saved.

And that's why someone needs to save him. For the good of the league, David Stern needs to "nudge" McHale and Taylor to make a move. Trade the man to the Bulls or the Clippers or the Lakers, all of whom have the right combination of young players and picks to make a palatable exchange. Stick Garnett in a big market with quality teammates and see what happens. We need to see what he can really do, and so does he.

Whether he wants to admit it or not.
--------------------------------------

i'm sure half ya'll will hate this, as it's brought up every year. HOWEVER...

it's over for KG in minnesota. that team is going to be useless and mired in mediocrity for the remainder of KG's career if he stays. They could trade him to another crappy team, which may/may not help the t'wolves, but wouldn't help KG at all. OR, they trade him to a contender and try to restock with leftovers.

come trade deadline, why wouldn't marion+banks+cleveland pick be good? maybe even up it to atlanta pick? but of course not give up barbosa.

yes, suns lose on YET ANOTHER draft, but you give some to get some. wolves get a great pick in a ridiculously deep draft, a guy they loved last year but couldn't keep, and a proven commodity in his prime. suns have a team with no excuse to win multiple titles

nash
bell
kg
diaw
amare
barbosa

all signed long-term, with KT and rose right now. i would do it just because on paper this is the most talented team top to bottom that i've ever seen in the nba. 2 mvp's in their prime, 2 more all-star caliber players, and 2 borderline all-stars...

EDIT: one more point that i think bears mentioning. we got too many guys right now. coach aint' going to play them. we're certainly NOT adding 3 more rookies next year. NO WAY. in a deep draft, giving up a top 5 pick is not the end of the world, especially if KG is the prize. the city of PHX would rejoice if this happened IMO.

from a salary perspective, its a wash. we're sending out about $1-2M more in salary than we're bringing in, we save on paying for the draft pick next year, but pay a couple mil this year in lux tax. overall, little to no effect.
 
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AnonymouslyKnown

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KG is awesome. I have been hoping for a long time that he would get out of minnesota, but I don't think he should go to Phoenix. I don't think the Suns need KG and Amare. I hope he goes somewhere else. Hopefully not to LA, I hate both LA teams.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Why wouldn't it work?

-Minny would want expiring contract, talented guys on rookie deals, and draft picks. Glen Taylor even said as much in an interview. You don't trade Garnett unless you are blowing it up and building from scratch.

-Why in the world would Minny want Banks? They had him last season and chose not to resign him. They have Randy Foye as the future, just signed Mike James to a long term deal - all while STILL having Troy Hudson on the books.
 

pokerface

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come trade deadline, why wouldn't marion+banks+cleveland pick be good? maybe even up it to atlanta pick? but of course not give up barbosa.


Why wouldn't it be good? Because another team would come along and offer a better deal. Your "offer" seems like a barebones attempt to see how little you can get KG for without thinking from the Wolves point of view. KG is a marketable and highly productive player that sells seats for the TWolves...he generates a lot of revenue. Marion wouldnt come close to replacing that.

Banks has little to no value and the Cleveland pick doesnt make anyone salivate. Marion is definately a good commodity but he is not real young nor is he a franchise type player. You say "of course not give up Barbosa" but he's precisley the guy that would have to be packaged with Marion in my opinion.

I'd say a Marion+Barbosa+Atlanta pick for KG is more realistic and even that wouldn't guarantee a deal. If two draft picks were offered with Marion and Barbs that offer could probably trump any other offer the Wolves would get.
 
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slinslin

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Marion, Barbosa and Atlanta's pick which could be someone like Buddinger, Hawes, Wright, Young, Thabeet etc etc would be a ridiculous price even for Garnett.
 

pokerface

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Marion, Barbosa and Atlanta's pick which could be someone like Buddinger, Hawes, Wright, Young, Thabeet etc etc would be a ridiculous price even for Garnett.


If the Suns dont get rings this year it might not seem so rediculous next offseason.
 

Divide Et Impera

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The only way we get Garnett is most likely in a 3-way. I say this not fully aware of the statuses of our contracts. Obviously, Marion is the centerpiece of our package and he would be going to a team that wants him and has young, reasonably inexpensive or expiring talent (ie, NY with Frye, Lee, or GS, ATL, NO/OKC, CHA, TOR, etc...). I would imagine we would have to let loose 2, if not all 3, of our picks in this year's draft as well as either Diaw or Barbosa or Banks AND James Jones. Frankly, I'd be all for losing Jones and Banks, all 3 picks and Marion for Garnett. On the flipside, I think MIN would want Diaw or Barbosa rather than Jones/Banks. Man, but what a dream to have a frontcourt of Diaw/Garnett/Stoudemire....
 

boisesuns

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It might be interesting to see if we can get him. Marion can be the man in Minnesota, but he would soon realize that the suns players around him were part of his success. I'm not sure he could handle being the man.
 

Divide Et Impera

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But the question is would MIN want Marion and his remaining contract? That's why I think it would HAVE TO BE a 3-way. There certainly would be takers for Marion and we have those 3 draft picks, so a deal could be made. Like I said, though, I am not too familiar with the contract status of Marion, but my guess is he has about 4 years left....
 

pokerface

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Here is the thing...

The Suns because of their numerous assets (players and draft picks) can afford to overpay for KG if it meant bringing a title to Phoenix...maybe a few titles even. Not only that but the excitement level over the Suns would be raised a few notches having a Nash, Amare, KG trio.

Also, could Garnett be even better playing with Nash?? Hard to say...
 

pokerface

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But the question is would MIN want Marion and his remaining contract? That's why I think it would HAVE TO BE a 3-way. There certainly would be takers for Marion and we have those 3 draft picks, so a deal could be made. Like I said, though, I am not too familiar with the contract status of Marion, but my guess is he has about 4 years left....


Marion is still young enough to fit in with their plans. If Barbosa plus pick(s) were involved that makes Minny younger.

Besides, they could always deal Marion later on if they wanted to.
 

Divide Et Impera

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Also, could Garnett be even better playing with Nash?? Hard to say...

History indicates that players have better years playing alongside Nash. Not only could Garnett average 25+ points alongside Nash, but Stoudemire could ALSO average 25+ points alongside Garnett. Who do you double? Nash? Stoudemire? Garnett? Pick your poison and then Diaw or Barbosa are open....
 

pokerface

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History indicates that players have better years playing alongside Nash. Not only could Garnett average 25+ points alongside Nash, but Stoudemire could ALSO average 25+ points alongside Garnett. Who do you double? Nash? Stoudemire? Garnett? Pick your poison and then Diaw or Barbosa are open....


Yeah right I was thinking about that too. Who would get doubled? No one probably which would be pretty lethal for Amare or KG to be single covered for whole games.

Marion for all his good qualities isnt quite the threat Garnett is...
 

hafey

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The Wolves would be stupid to take marion in a trade. Losing a Garnett for Marion is a backwards step talent wise, while also not clearing any cap room in the next couple years. If the wolves are smart, which might not be the case, they'd find a way to clear alot of cap room for the upcoming free agency and be big players in a market which will lack teams with significant cap room.

That said, I would strongly opposed to any Garnett trade during the season. A major move like that would require alot of time to realize any benefits. After the season, I'd be more willing to discuss it.
 

JCSunsfan

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Marion, Barbosa and Atlanta's pick which could be someone like Buddinger, Hawes, Wright, Young, Thabeet etc etc would be a ridiculous price even for Garnett.


That is correct, especially considering Garnett's salary. I don't think Minny would be interested in Barbosa much though. I think they would want a bigger player or more picks instead. They might take JR and two picks. Its rebuilding time for them and they will want to do it with a boatload of picks. They already are stocked with young pg's and combo guards.

BTW. I do think we would be in the best position to swing a deal for Garnett. I've been watching the ongoing discussion on the Minny board at RealGM, and they seem to think a Phoenix deal might be most attractive to them. Chicago has lots of young players, but the salary match would be difficult.

Other than us, it would probably be the Lakers (or maybe the Clips). While I am not so fond of messing with our chemistry, and I think that we take Marion's athleticism and speed for granted (Garnett is not as fast and our break would suffer), I would consider doing a deal for Garnett just to keep him out of LA. The idea of Garnett and Kobe together scares me. Their championship window would parallel our own.
 

pokerface

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The Wolves would be stupid to take marion in a trade. Losing a Garnett for Marion is a backwards step talent wise, while also not clearing any cap room in the next couple years..

I don't think many (if any) people are proposing a straight up Marion for KG trade. The trade talks usually involves draft picks plus some of our younger talent. Its a package deal being offered.


If the wolves are smart, which might not be the case, they'd find a way to clear alot of cap room for the upcoming free agency and be big players in a market which will lack teams with significant cap room.

Freed up money doesn't necessarily equate to getting high quality free agents. Usually a superstar free agent will have more than one suitor...It's still a gamble that a particular player will sign or not. If a team has a lot of money but very little quality players on their squad some guys will still not want to play for a team like that. A lot of NBA elite players want money AND to be on a winning team.

If Marion were on the TWolves that actually may attract more free agents because they'd have a "partner in crime" to win games with. Plus having Marion doesnt negate the chance for Minny to sign other big time free agents. Marion for his big money still makes a lot less than KG. Plus Marion himself would still be a valuable trading chip for Minny.
 

hafey

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I am aware it'd be a package deal. I just don't think that if I'm the Wolves the best package deal is based around Marion.

As for free agency, yes winning does matter, but there are enough hired guns out there that the Wolves could buy, especially in a market bereft of teams with cap room.
 
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Covert Rain

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First off, let me say that I would love to get KG. I think he is the type of player that could put you over the top. However, like every single time this comes up, I have to play devils advocate.

Marion is the only player ranked in the top 20 in points (17th, 21.2) and top 10 in rebounds (8th, 9.5) and steals (3rd, 2.28) in the NBA. Their overall career stats are incredibly similar. In fact, you could argue Marion over achieves in some areas like rebounding and blocks where KG underachieves for someone of his size.

Some of you are suggesting it would take a package of draft picks and Marion?!?!? You cannot be serious. You would be trading for almost the same player yet it would cost the Suns more. For what? For almost the exact same stats at one position (SF) to another position (Center). Because there is no way Amare plays center if they get KG. That's also assuming KG could or would play out of position at center. Unlike Marion, KG hasn't played as much out of position as Marion.

So man I would love to get KG but not at the price some of you are suggesting. There is nothing that says KG is that much more valuable then Marion. So anybody suggesting that KG for Marion STRAIGHT UP would be a fair trade, I would have to agree.

IMO the only reason you would have to give up more for KG is not because of stats or talent. It simply because of recognition. KG has been the stud amungst a TON of terrible talent on the MT. He is not burried on a team with the likes of Nash and Amare.

So if you could get KG by trading say Kurt, another player and some draft picks then I would be all for it. If you think that having the same stats but at center versus small forward would put you over the top (assuming a straight up trade would work) then again, pull the trigger. However, you don't trade 2 similar players and give up more because your player isn't as marketable and burried on a much more talented team.
 
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Divide Et Impera

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Trade talks are always fun. With that said, here's a scenario with LAC-MIN-PHX....

ID#3449432

LAC trades:

Cuttino Mobley
Corey Magette
Aaron Williams
Yaroslav Korolev

LAC gets:

Shawn Marion
Marcus Banks
First Rounder

Why? Well, they luck out and get to be a catalyst for the trade. They come out way on top just for helping PHX. No other reason....

MIN trades:

Kevin Garnett

MIN gets:

Cuttino Mobley
Corey Magette
James Jones
Aaron Williams
Yaroslav Korolev
2 First Rounders

Why? Well, they get immediate relief from Korolev's contract this year, they get relief next year from Williams contract, they get relief from Magette's the following year and, finally, Mobley's comes off after that. That's cap relief in 4 successive offseasons PLUS they get two starters, a bench player and end up with a potential total of 3 picks in this year's draft. Williams and Magette are tradeable assets next year, thus allowing for additional flexibility....

PHX trades:

Shawn Marion
Marcus Banks
James Jones
3 First Rounders

PHX gets:

Kevin Garnett

Why? It's self explanatory. KG improves this team more than any 3 mid-late first round draft picks would and they hang onto Barbs and Diaw. They end up with Nash-Bell-Diaw-Garnett-Stoudemire with a bench of Barbosa-Thomas-Rose-Jones. That's a great 9-man rotation, especially considering 3 of the 9 are big minute players....

TRADE ACCEPTED
 

JCSunsfan

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Trade talks are always fun. With that said, here's a scenario with LAC-MIN-PHX....

ID#3449432

LAC trades:

Cuttino Mobley
Corey Magette
Aaron Williams
Yaroslav Korolev

LAC gets:

Shawn Marion
Marcus Banks
First Rounder

Why? Well, they luck out and get to be a catalyst for the trade. They come out way on top just for helping PHX. No other reason....

MIN trades:

Kevin Garnett

MIN gets:

Cuttino Mobley
Corey Magette
James Jones
Aaron Williams
Yaroslav Korolev
2 First Rounders

Why? Well, they get immediate relief from Korolev's contract this year, they get relief next year from Williams contract, they get relief from Magette's the following year and, finally, Mobley's comes off after that. That's cap relief in 4 successive offseasons PLUS they get two starters, a bench player and end up with a potential total of 3 picks in this year's draft. Williams and Magette are tradeable assets next year, thus allowing for additional flexibility....

PHX trades:

Shawn Marion
Marcus Banks
James Jones
3 First Rounders

PHX gets:

Kevin Garnett

Why? It's self explanatory. KG improves this team more than any 3 mid-late first round draft picks would and they hang onto Barbs and Diaw. They end up with Nash-Bell-Diaw-Garnett-Stoudemire with a bench of Barbosa-Thomas-Rose-Jones. That's a great 9-man rotation, especially considering 3 of the 9 are big minute players....

TRADE ACCEPTED

I am sorry, I would not do that trade for KG. Its too many eggs in one basket. KG goes down with an injury (which 30 somethings tend to do, remember Danny Manning, Googs, Penny Hardaway), you've traded away all of your future.

Won't KG be a FA in a year or two anyway? Remember Richie Sexon. Trade away half your team and end up with nothing.

KG is an incredible player, but his contract is forboding now, and uncertain in the future, plus he is a 12 year vet. There is alot of NBA mileage on those legs of his. All that HAS to be taken into consideration.
 

pokerface

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Some of you are suggesting it would take a package of draft picks and Marion?!?!? You cannot be serious.

Absolutely serious. In no way shape or form would the Twolves trade KG for Marion straight up...even if salaries wern't a consideration.

Speaking of serious...were you serious when you suggested..

So if you could get KG by trading say Kurt, another player and some draft picks then I would be all for it.

Of course you and any Suns homer would be all for that trade....obviously the Twolves would laugh you right out of the room if that were proposed to them.


You would be trading for almost the same player yet it would cost the Suns more. For what? For almost the exact same stats at one position (SF) to another position (Center).

Their stats may be similar (although KG averages 2ppg and 3rpg more) but KG is the focal point of other teams defense while Marion certainley is not....Marion almost never gets doubled...KG does face double teams. Teams focus in on KG yet he still outperfoms Marion. Not only that but KG's 4 inches of height advantage over Marion has to help on defense.


Because there is no way Amare plays center if they get KG. That's also assuming KG could or would play out of position at center. Unlike Marion, KG hasn't played as much out of position as Marion.

Amare has played center....KG would play center.....Diaw has played center....Kurt is a center. Why get hung up on any of that? Besides, tell me what wrong with a Nash/Bell/Garnett/Amare/Kurt starting five? Is that so terrible?

So man I would love to get KG but not at the price some of you are suggesting. There is nothing that says KG is that much more valuable then Marion. So anybody suggesting that KG for Marion would be a fair trade, I would have to agree.

What price? Marion, Barbs, and a draft pick? Thats a price the Suns could pay...EASILY. The Suns have three picks in this upcoming deep draft...They have a lot of talent on the team already. They can afford to trade up.
 
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