Kyler Murray has been working out since Jan

[BritCard]

AJ Green hasn’t had a good season in 4 years & arguably a great one in 6. AJ is a borderline HOFer, but don’t make him something that he’s not & clearly has not been in multiple years. Stop overrating Kirk You’re doing with Kirk with how you perceive others are doing with Kyler.

However, I do agree Chase is underrated here.

Green had only 47 catches last year. As already discussed, largely because Burrows down field accuracy was one of the worst in the league.

As a WR2 if he can get 80+ targets at the same rate that's 900 yards plus.

I'm no Kirk homer but it's obvious he's poorly used and as a WR3 he would be one of the best in the league. Easily capable of 800+ minimum.

TE is a weakness for sure but add in Moore, Johnson, Edmunds and Conner and I'm confident we have more than enough.

 

[DVontel]

Green had only 47 catches last year. As already discussed, largely because Burrows down field accuracy was one of the worst in the league.

As a WR2 if he can get 80+ targets at the same rate that's 900 yards plus.

I'm no Kirk homer but it's obvious he's poorly used and as a WR3 he would be one of the best in the league. Easily capable of 800+ minimum.

TE is a weakness for sure but add in Moore, Johnson, Edmunds and Conner and I'm confident we have more than enough.

Ah, so nothing with AJ’s diminishing abilities, it was just mostly Burrow’s fault. Nice.


Easily capable of 800 when he only has surpassed 700 just once. He could be just not as good as you think. Maybe he just doesn’t have the abilities you so want him to have. I was in the same exact boat you’re in when it came to Kirk last year, but I was clearly fooled.

Moore is a rookie that has durability problems, but I have semi-high hopes.

Connor is passable. Chase is solid

Johnson as in KeeSean????

 

[Chopper0080]

Kyler can't do things required in the NFL and still may not this year isn't comforting. How much time does he need?

1 year in the NFL is worth 1.5 in college at least. Not only because of more games but just the higher level of difficulty. It's more like 2, but let's be generous and say 1.5.

He had 1 and a bit college years. Plus 3 years college equivalent of NFL time.

That's equal to 4 years starting in college. So why is it beyond expectations to expect Justin Herbert or Andrew Luck levels of play next year?

You are arguing that the NFL is a teaching league and it isn't. I will try another example for you. You are equating learning to drive on the autobahn as a supplement for learning to drive in the city. While the autobahn may be more difficult and potentially dangerous, it still doesn't teach you to parallel park. There are parts to the QB position that you learn in college that are just more difficult to learn at the NFL level.

College is about learning good habits, reading more complex defenses, and elevating the talent around you in a forgiving environment. Then you get to the NFL and you have to learn to do those things but speed up your process while maintaining those fundamentals. Kyler is trying to learn those habits while also going fast against the best defensive schemes, coaches and players in the world. If anything, 1 year in the NFL is like .5 years in college and not the other way around.

 

[BritCard]

You are arguing that the NFL is a teaching league and it isn't. I will try another example for you. You are equating learning to drive on the autobahn as a supplement for learning to drive in the city. While the autobahn may be more difficult and potentially dangerous, it still doesn't teach you to parallel park. There are parts to the QB position that you learn in college that are just more difficult to learn at the NFL level.

College is about learning good habits, reading more complex defenses, and elevating the talent around you in a forgiving environment. Then you get to the NFL and you have to learn to do those things but speed up your process while maintaining those fundamentals. Kyler is trying to learn those habits while also going fast against the best defensive schemes, coaches and players in the world. If anything, 1 year in the NFL is like .5 years in college and not the other way around.

So "the best way to learn is to do" doesn't apply in the NFL? Surely this argument means you ceiling is set in college and Kyler will never be substantially better?

 

[BritCard]

Ah, so nothing with AJ’s diminishing abilities, it was just mostly Burrow’s fault. Nice.


Easily capable of 800 when he only has surpassed 700 just once. He could be just not as good as you think. Maybe he just doesn’t have the abilities you so want him to have. I was in the same exact boat you’re in when it came to Kirk last year, but I was clearly fooled.

Moore is a rookie that has durability problems, but I have semi-high hopes.

Connor is passable. Chase is solid

Johnson as in KeeSean????

Kirk would have been close to 800 yards his rookie year had he not missed a few games. So I'm confident he can achieve that at least if used well.

 

[Chopper0080]

So "the best way to learn is to do" doesn't apply in the NFL? Surely this argument means you ceiling is set in college and Kyler will never be substantially better?

You have to have a foundation to build upon. The larger the foundation, the bigger house you can build. Kyler is trying to build on his limited foundation he was drafted with while also expanding that foundation and building an addition to his current build all at the same time. It is a slower process.

I don't know how else to describe it to you.

 

[BritCard]

You have to have a foundation to build upon. The larger the foundation, the bigger house you can build. Kyler is trying to build on his limited foundation he was drafted with while also expanding that foundation and building an addition to his current build all at the same time. It is a slower process.

I don't know how else to describe it to you.

So in a league where no need to make a SB run in a rookie window we have a guy that's unlikely to be up to speed in his rookie window?

And if this is the case, if Kyler is unlikely to be up to speed yet, is the FO throwing everything at a win now strategy?

 

[Chopper0080]

and I am not saying that it can't be done and Kyler can't develop. I am saying that learning at the NFL level is very hard and takes a lot longer than people think because it isn't an environment that is about teaching football fundamentals.

 

[Chopper0080]

So in a league where no need to make a SB run in a rookie window we have a guy that's unlikely to be up to speed in his rookie window?

And if this is the case, if Kyler is unlikely to be up to speed yet, is the FO throwing everything at a win now strategy?

I would say that this was the concern with drafting Kyler. By the time he would be technically sound enough to take his team to a Super Bowl, he would be on his second contract. There are actually several posts/threads on this board that state the Cardinals will likely have to pay Kyler a huge contract without him having shown he can be a top NFL QB on the field.

To your second point, they should. That is why I would be willing to trade for Julio Jones. Kyler has shown that he still has a ways to go before he can start elevating talent. Because of that, I am more than willing to invest future resources in players who can help him develop now.

 

[gmabel830]

It's almost as if something is driving your perception that he doesn't work hard and isn't bright. I wonder what it could be.

Bias against short guys, obviously


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BullheadCardFan]

This is why through two years Kyler still wants to SEE the player open vs leading the player to open space. He has never been able to learn throwing a player open in a safe and forgiving environment which the NFL level is not.

This is very important

Any way we could get Warner to work with him?

He was a master at doing this

Would he listen?

 

[SoonerLou]

But it is not. Kyler Murray is taking a college level calculus class with only one year of high school algebra. Just because that class forces it's students to use algebra concepts doesn't mean it is teaching them.

Learning tight window throws in college is much more forgiving in college than in the NFL. Throwing players open in college is much more forgiving than in the NFL. Reading defenses is much more forgiving in college than in the NFL. Look at Alex Smith. He became risk averse in the NFL because he was trying to learn at the NFL level while also not turning the ball over which some deem as an unforgivable sin in the NFL. Andy Reid moved off of Smith in KC because there were open throws that he wouldn't even attempt because he was so concerned with protecting the ball. This is why through two years Kyler still wants to SEE the player open vs leading the player to open space. He has never been able to learn throwing a player open in a safe and forgiving environment which the NFL level is not.

I've said it before, but by Baker Mayfield's senior year it was almost as if he was trying to attempt the more difficult throws on purpose. Yes, he scrambled around more than he needed to at times, but you would also see him actively working on pocket presence.

Baker was a guy who was trying to sharpen his skills for the NFL. 3rd year starting he was comfortable enough to do that.

Where as Kyler would throw a tight window throw only if he had to. Otherwise, he could easily take off and run up field instead of manipulating the pocket to create throwing windows.

Kyler was a guy who was trying to dominate college football.

Now to be fair he would throw guys open sometimes, throw in spots with anticipation, but again it just wasnt something he needed to do.

 

[SoonerLou]

Would like a lower amount of ints, but the rest seems possible.

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[kerouac9]

Would like a lower amount of ints, but the rest seems possible.

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i have a small worry that Kyler will be happier being a good fantasy QB than a great reality QB. Great way to offload concerns that you’re not winning on your teammates/coaches.

 

[SoonerLou]

i have a small worry that Kyler will be happier being a good fantasy QB than a great reality QB. Great way to offload concerns that you’re not winning on your teammates/coaches.

He doesnt handle losing well enough for me to have that concern.

 

[kerouac9]

He doesnt handle losing well enough for me to have that concern.

Based on what?

 

[HairZach]

Based on what?

Well there was him screaming at Darrel Daniels for whiffing a block, he always looks pissed on the sideline after a bad drive and he even gets sore when he's losing at Madden on his Twitch streams. Hell in his last year of college, after losing the only regular season game his team lost all year, he refused to shake the opposing QBs hand and was holding back tears in the post game interview.

He's a sore loser. It's not ideal sportsmanship, but it does make me think he's hyper competitive. Winning matters to him. I don't think its just talk when he says the goal every year is to win a Superbowl. He's gonna keep pushing himself to be better.

 

[SoonerLou]

Based on what?

What the other poster said.

Also back in college, he put up almost 400 yards 4tds in the RRR and was in tears afterward because of two terrible turnovers he had that helped lose the game.

You're underrating just how competitive he is.

 

[SoonerLou]

Now this is the type of stuff we'd hope to hear about with Kyler. Should be spending time working with Brees and Russ.

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[BritCard]

I would say that this was the concern with drafting Kyler. By the time he would be technically sound enough to take his team to a Super Bowl, he would be on his second contract. There are actually several posts/threads on this board that state the Cardinals will likely have to pay Kyler a huge contract without him having shown he can be a top NFL QB on the field.

To your second point, they should. That is why I would be willing to trade for Julio Jones. Kyler has shown that he still has a ways to go before he can start elevating talent. Because of that, I am more than willing to invest future resources in players who can help him develop now.

If this is accurate it's all the more reason he should be spending considerable time with QB coaches in the off season.

 

[QuebecCard]

Based on what?

And your conjecture was based on what?

He likes video games....

 

[QuebecCard]

If this is accurate it's all the more reason he should be spending considerable time with QB coaches in the off season.

1. the team has a QB coach
2. His H-C (offensive coordinator) is a former QB

How many do you need and why?

I'm confident that KM knows all the drills needed to hone his craft.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Come on, this is better than many QB's have. This idea that he needs 4 top tier guys is a massive reach.

Matt Ryan spent last year throwing mostly to Ridley, Gage, Zaccheaus and Hurst and had 4600 yards.

I don't need to see his weapons. He has more than enough.

Kyler had 3700 yards in his "great rookie season" throwing to the corpse of Fitz, Kirk and Byrd and Clay.

You quoted me on this response. Please quote anywhere that’s I’ve said what you’re attributing to me? If you can’t, then you’re putting words in my mouth. Stop.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In your opinion.

Was Beasley a top guy when the Bills signed him?

Nuk is a top 2 WR1 in the league. AJ Green is a borderline HOF WR coming off a single down year. Kirk has plenty more to give and is moving to the slot where he should always have been. Conner and Edmonds are both accomplished receiving backs.

We have a top half of the league receiving room.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You're laying the ground work for more excuses and putting yourself in a no lose scenario.

If Kyler is good then the receiving room is good enough. If Kyler is average or there's no step forward its more "It's the receivers. We need Nuk, Julio, OBJ and Kelce for Kyler to reach his potential". No lose.

I’m not “laying groundwork,” I’m stating facts.

“single down year” - nice selective memory, what happened the year before? Oh he was injured all year!

“plenty more to give” - yeah, in other words a “has never been” at this point.
Top half receiving room? First, I like how you moved the goalposts from “weapons” to just receivers. Because you can’t counter my comment on its face. And beyond that, I just listed 8 in the top 11 offenses that have better weapons than we do, and that doesn’t count minny (better receivers and rb), Dallas (same), Rams (same), panthers, browns off the top of my head.

 

[BritCard]

1. the team has a QB coach
2. His H-C (offensive coordinator) is a former QB

How many do you need and why?

I'm confident that KM knows all the drills needed to hone his craft.

He has those for what? Less than 6 months of the year, and apart from possibly a few weeks in OTA's where they are in pads at full speed they don't have much time during the season to teach fundamentals. They are breaking down previous games, watching tape of upcoming opponents, doing weekly installs and game plans etc. And that's even if you think a 33 year old with 3 years as an assistant should be given the keys to the Ferrari in the first place. Which is another story.

But if you ask why does he need it well why is 9 year vet Russell Wilson training with Drew Brees in the off season?

Why has Mahomes, Watson, Allen and Burrow been coached by guys like Jordan Palmer in the offseason? Why have Brady, Ryan, Stafford, Brees, Goff, Dalton, Eli Manning, and Flacco among others trained with House and Dedeaux (now 3DQB) in the offseason?

Why has Ryan, Prescott, Brees, Zach Wilson, Fields and Lance and others worked with John Beck in the offseason?

Why do other QB's, including seasoned vets, think off season coaching is required but our raw, inexperienced 2 year QB doesn't? Here we have @Chopper0080 saying Kyler is behind the curve because of his lack of college playing time. So wouldn't some intense coaching by specialist QB guru's in the months where neither Kliff or Cam Turner are allowed contact with him help him make up some of that ground? It certainly can't hurt.

There are only 4 possible reasons I can think of that he's not,

1, The Cards prohibit it (I don't see that at all. All other QB's do it and why would they hold him back? Plus I'm not sure they can legally tell him not to in the offseason)

2, He thinks he doesn't need it. He's already great (This is my biggest concern, because he isn't)

3, He just can't be bothered and would rather work out at the gym, play COD and chill with his boys.

4, He thinks the high school level coaching his Dad can give him is enough