Kyler Murray has been working out since Jan

[BritCard]

So, lemme get this straight. He had no competition, but many commentators said it should have gone to Jacobs? I just want to be sure I understand.

Do I have to write everything literally here now? When I said "no competition " I meant it wasn't a 3-4 horse race. There were no rookie WRs with 1200+ yards etc

OK, he had no competition outside Josh Jacobs and when he was injured it knocked him out of winning it for sure. Even with the 8njury many think he should have won it.

 

[GatorAZ]

QB's nearly always win OROTY and he had absolutely no competition. Drop him in any previous year and he wouldn't even be in contention.

When Danny Dimes and Haskins are your competition you could have won OROTY.

I think his ROY was warranted but making the pro bowl over Brady was kinda whack.

 

[BritCard]

Murray was a one year college starter. The bust rate on 1st year starters is very high. He has a lot of growth still to do. Herbert should be more advanced as a passer because of the amount of games played.

Herbert - 4 year starter
Burrow - 2 year starter
Mayfield - 3 year starter
Watson - 2 year starter
Prescott - 4 year starter

Now to your "projections if they played a whole season" Lets examine these numbers

QB1 65.3% completion. 3.2% TD INT: 1.2% Sack 7.3% QBR 56.2
QB2 64.4% completion. 3.7% TD INT 2.2% Sack 8.1% QBR 57.7
QB3 52.0% completion 4.1% TD INT 2.7% Sack 8.1% QBR 41.0

Which do you think Murray is and what are the other two "That would have had better seasons if they played all year?"

This is tired and gets used too much to paper over the cracks. Yes it's a factor but if it's that big a factor he shouldn't have been the #1 pick.

You don't draft a QB #1 so he can be good in a few years when he's caught up for his lack of college reps. The FO thought he was worth it and ready. That's the level of expectation he has to live up to.

Can we at least all agree this is the last year we make excuses for him? No more lack of reps, no more no offseason because of Covid. No more "the roster wasn't great"?

We all agree he has everything he needs?

 

[BritCard]

And only one of those 10 QB's ever won a SB...

9 of them have been in the last 17 years.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is tired and gets used too much to paper over the cracks. Yes it's a factor but if it's that big a factor he shouldn't have been the #1 pick.

You don't draft a QB #1 so he can be good in a few years when he's caught up for his lack of college reps. The FO thought he was worth it and ready. That's the level of expectation he has to live up to.

Can we at least all agree this is the last year we make excuses for him? No more lack of reps, no more no offseason because of Covid. No more "the roster wasn't great"?

We all agree he has everything he needs?

Personally I am a wait and see on his weapons. He’s got a great WR (Nuk), a retread (AJ), a hopefully (Moore), a disappointment (Kirk), an unproven rb (Edmonds), a retread rb (Collins), and no TE.

 

[SECTION 11]

Personally I am a wait and see on his weapons. He’s got a great WR (Nuk), a retread (AJ), a hopefully (Moore), a disappointment (Kirk), an unproven rb (Edmonds), a retread rb (Collins), and no TE.

Personally I am a wait and see on his weapons. He’s got a great WR (Nuk), a retread (AJ), a hopefully (Moore), a disappointment (Kirk), an unproven rb (Edmonds), a retread rb (Collins), and no TE.

We all agree he has everything he needs?

No, not at all lol.

 

[SECTION 11]

I'm trying to make it simple. Not require guys to have an degree in analytics.

Honestly I don’t even know what you are trying to state. I haven’t read enough of this thread to determine that. And probably won’t. I’m simply too lazy for that level of investment.

 

[SECTION 11]

I found this. Not sure if it helps.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[SoonerLou]

I think his ROY was warranted but making the pro bowl over Brady was kinda whack.

In hindsight. However, the Pro Bowl was decided after FOURTEEN GAMES

They had the same passer rating at 97
Kyler had 500 more total yards of offense
Kyler had 5 points higher on QBR at the time
Kyler had 2 more total TDs

Brady had 1 more win over Kyler when his team was both more talented on offense and defense.

Brady feasted on the Falcons and Lions to end the year. Kyler faced the 49ers/while not the same level of defense still under a good DC/just hired. And a brutal Rams defense

So I'm looking forward to your response. Based on the PRO BOWL CRITERIA of selecting after 14 games that Kyler was a "JOKE" at the moment.

Kyler obviously isnt better than Brady. However, its a joke to say at the time was a joke he was selected when his team was 8-6 and he was on pace for 5000 yards of total offense.

edit: thought I read joke..unless you changed it whack. My mistake. Still I look forward to your response.

 

[GatorAZ]

In hindsight. However, the Pro Bowl was decided after FOURTEEN GAMES

They had the same passer rating at 97
Kyler had 500 more total yards of offense
Kyler had 5 points higher on QBR at the time
Kyler had 2 more total TDs

Brady had 1 more win over Kyler when his team was both more talented on offense and defense.

Brady feasted on the Falcons and Lions to end the year. Kyler faced the 49ers/while not the same level of defense still under a good DC/just hired. And a brutal Rams defense

So I'm looking forward to your response. Based on the PRO BOWL CRITERIA of selecting after 14 games that Kyler was a "JOKE" at the moment.

Kyler obviously isnt better than Brady. However, its a joke to say at the time was a joke he was selected when his team was 8-6 and he was on pace for 5000 yards of total offense.

edit: thought I read joke..unless you changed it whack. My mistake. Still I look forward to your response.

That is true about it being decided with two games remaining but those last two games were gimmies and Tampa still finished with the toughest schedule in the league. Everyone in the NFC North was top-5. So I can see how it’s be on coin flip at the time of the vote but, IMO, Brady in totality was the third best NFC QB last season.

 

[splitsecond]

I sure am glad to know that Kyler Murray, a professional athlete, has been working out.

 

[BritCard]

Personally I am a wait and see on his weapons. He’s got a great WR (Nuk), a retread (AJ), a hopefully (Moore), a disappointment (Kirk), an unproven rb (Edmonds), a retread rb (Collins), and no TE.

Come on, this is better than many QB's have. This idea that he needs 4 top tier guys is a massive reach.

Matt Ryan spent last year throwing mostly to Ridley, Gage, Zaccheaus and Hurst and had 4600 yards.

I don't need to see his weapons. He has more than enough.

Kyler had 3700 yards in his "great rookie season" throwing to the corpse of Fitz, Kirk and Byrd and Clay.

 

[BritCard]

No, not at all lol.

Homers got to get their excuses started early I guess.

What's it going to be next year? Kliff? The scheme? Running backs? The astral plane?

 

[tnmike]

Homers got to get their excuses started early I guess.

What's it going to be next year? Kliff? The scheme? Running backs? The astral plane?

The better question might be " What's it going to be next year with you?" Go ahead and get started, you have a whole year to manufacture something to complain about

 

[Chopper0080]

This is tired and gets used too much to paper over the cracks. Yes it's a factor but if it's that big a factor he shouldn't have been the #1 pick.

You don't draft a QB #1 so he can be good in a few years when he's caught up for his lack of college reps. The FO thought he was worth it and ready. That's the level of expectation he has to live up to.

Can we at least all agree this is the last year we make excuses for him? No more lack of reps, no more no offseason because of Covid. No more "the roster wasn't great"?

We all agree he has everything he needs?

But it is the reality. We took a raw and unrefined player #1 when most guys as a #1 prospect have a much greater track record.

trevor Lawrence - better prospect
Joe Burrow - better prospect
Baker Mayfield - wash
Jared Goff - not as good
Jameis Winston - wash
Andrew Luck - better prospect
Cam Newton - better prospect
Sam Bradford - better prospect
Matt Stafford - better prospect

You can go back further and it remains true. That doesn't mean Kyler can't turn out to be a better player than those guys, but his resume as a #1 pick was a lot of projection, not much production, and with multiple red flags.

We are seeing what it looks like to learn to play QB at the NFL level for a top athlete and we saw it with an average athlete in Mitchell Trubisky.

 

[SECTION 11]

Homers got to get their excuses started early I guess.

What's it going to be next year? Kliff? The scheme? Running backs? The astral plane?

I don’t think you understand. I’m completely good with his game, where he’s at, how much he’s progressed, and where he’s going. You’re misinterpreting holes in your argument (?) for other people’s excuses.
No analytics necessary, I’m just logical. And I have these things called eyeballs.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

 

[BritCard]

But it is the reality. We took a raw and unrefined player #1 when most guys as a #1 prospect have a much greater track record.

trevor Lawrence - better prospect
Joe Burrow - better prospect
Baker Mayfield - wash
Jared Goff - not as good
Jameis Winston - wash
Andrew Luck - better prospect
Cam Newton - better prospect
Sam Bradford - better prospect
Matt Stafford - better prospect

You can go back further and it remains true. That doesn't mean Kyler can't turn out to be a better player than those guys, but his resume as a #1 pick was a lot of projection, not much production, and with multiple red flags.

We are seeing what it looks like to learn to play QB at the NFL level for a top athlete and we saw it with an average athlete in Mitchell Trubisky.

I said it's reality, I just think it's used more as a catch all excuse than it should be and there should have been a bigger leap in his passing game in year 2 than there was in my opinion. Especially considering they gave him Nuk.

He's had 2 years of NFL starting and coaching now. That excuse is gone. He needs to step it up this year and if not it can no longer be blamed on "Well he didn't start much in college". Especially when he was basically raised as a QB.

 

[juza76]

I

I said it's reality, I just think it's used more as a catch all excuse than it should be and there should have been a bigger leap in his passing game in year 2 than there was in my opinion. Especially considering they gave him Nuk.

He's had 2 years of NFL starting and coaching now. That excuse is gone. He needs to step it up this year and if not it can no longer be blamed on "Well he didn't start much in college". Especially when he was basically raised as a QB.

Indeed his numbers were better cause there was Hopkins, but u can't ignore the rest of the receivers were very below average compare to other better teams
I'm agree in no more excuses but I'm against the excessive critics he received
Part of his game must be improved but it's a bless to have that kind of qb to root for
40 tds in a season from a qb is something we haven't seen before with the Cardinals
Or do u expect him having 1000rushng yards and 10 tds and 4500 yards and 50tds?
I m so glad we have a qb who has a chance to be close to those numbers

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Come on, this is better than many QB's have. This idea that he needs 4 top tier guys is a massive reach.

Matt Ryan spent last year throwing mostly to Ridley, Gage, Zaccheaus and Hurst and had 4600 yards.

I don't need to see his weapons. He has more than enough.

Kyler had 3700 yards in his "great rookie season" throwing to the corpse of Fitz, Kirk and Byrd and Clay.

Lol there you go putting words in my mouth again. Have you not figured out that I’m going to call you out on it every single freaking time?

he doesn’t even have two top tier guys. Show me the top offenses that don’t have two top weapons.

here’s top 11 offenses from last year (so too 1/3rd):
KC - hill and Kelce (and a bunch of others)
GB - jones and adams
Bills - diggs and Beasley (967 yards last year far outstrips any non-Hopkins player on cards)
Saints - Thomas and kamara
Bucs - evans and Godwin (and bunch of others)
Cardinals - nuk and (Edmonds with combined yardage?)
Ravens - maybe closest, but they had guys NOT Lamar that smashed out 2,066 yards rushing (cards “smashed” out 1,282 minis kyler)
Falcons - Julio and Ridley
Seahawks - DK and Lockett
Steelers - jJ and dionte aren’t great, but at least there are two playmakers (both close to or over 900 yards) and then there’s a TE that put up 558 yards
titans - Henry and aj (and Davis also put up 984 last year)

Note, only ravens and Steelers don’t have two top players (maybe bills). But again, ravens just pounded the rock (something cards didn’t do), Steelers are an anomaly, bills 2nd guy out produced cards second guy by 170 yards).

so 8 of 11 top offenses have more top weapons than does kyler going into this season.

 

[ajcardfan]

I said it's reality, I just think it's used more as a catch all excuse than it should be and there should have been a bigger leap in his passing game in year 2 than there was in my opinion. Especially considering they gave him Nuk.

He's had 2 years of NFL starting and coaching now. That excuse is gone. He needs to step it up this year and if not it can no longer be blamed on "Well he didn't start much in college". Especially when he was basically raised as a QB.

This take is sheer genius. Brillant insight.

"He needs to step it up this year...."

Wow. Just wow.

How did you figure that out?

 

[Chopper0080]

I said it's reality, I just think it's used more as a catch all excuse than it should be and there should have been a bigger leap in his passing game in year 2 than there was in my opinion. Especially considering they gave him Nuk.

He's had 2 years of NFL starting and coaching now. That excuse is gone. He needs to step it up this year and if not it can no longer be blamed on "Well he didn't start much in college". Especially when he was basically raised as a QB.

But it is not. Kyler Murray is taking a college level calculus class with only one year of high school algebra. Just because that class forces it's students to use algebra concepts doesn't mean it is teaching them.

Learning tight window throws in college is much more forgiving in college than in the NFL. Throwing players open in college is much more forgiving than in the NFL. Reading defenses is much more forgiving in college than in the NFL. Look at Alex Smith. He became risk averse in the NFL because he was trying to learn at the NFL level while also not turning the ball over which some deem as an unforgivable sin in the NFL. Andy Reid moved off of Smith in KC because there were open throws that he wouldn't even attempt because he was so concerned with protecting the ball. This is why through two years Kyler still wants to SEE the player open vs leading the player to open space. He has never been able to learn throwing a player open in a safe and forgiving environment which the NFL level is not.

 

[BritCard]

Lol there you go putting words in my mouth again. Have you not figured out that I’m going to call you out on it every single freaking time?

he doesn’t even have two top tier guys. Show me the top offenses that don’t have two top weapons.

here’s top 11 offenses from last year (so too 1/3rd):
KC - hill and Kelce (and a bunch of others)
GB - jones and adams
Bills - diggs and Beasley (967 yards last year far outstrips any non-Hopkins player on cards)
Saints - Thomas and kamara
Bucs - evans and Godwin (and bunch of others)
Cardinals - nuk and (Edmonds with combined yardage?)
Ravens - maybe closest, but they had guys NOT Lamar that smashed out 2,066 yards rushing (cards “smashed” out 1,282 minis kyler)
Falcons - Julio and Ridley
Seahawks - DK and Lockett
Steelers - jJ and dionte aren’t great, but at least there are two playmakers (both close to or over 900 yards) and then there’s a TE that put up 558 yards
titans - Henry and aj (and Davis also put up 984 last year)

Note, only ravens and Steelers don’t have two top players (maybe bills). But again, ravens just pounded the rock (something cards didn’t do), Steelers are an anomaly, bills 2nd guy out produced cards second guy by 170 yards).

so 8 of 11 top offenses have more top weapons than does kyler going into this season.

In your opinion.

Was Beasley a top guy when the Bills signed him?

Nuk is a top 2 WR1 in the league. AJ Green is a borderline HOF WR coming off a single down year. Kirk has plenty more to give and is moving to the slot where he should always have been. Conner and Edmonds are both accomplished receiving backs.

We have a top half of the league receiving room.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You're laying the ground work for more excuses and putting yourself in a no lose scenario.

If Kyler is good then the receiving room is good enough. If Kyler is average or there's no step forward its more "It's the receivers. We need Nuk, Julio, OBJ and Kelce for Kyler to reach his potential". No lose.

 

[BritCard]

But it is not. Kyler Murray is taking a college level calculus class with only one year of high school algebra. Just because that class forces it's students to use algebra concepts doesn't mean it is teaching them.

Learning tight window throws in college is much more forgiving in college than in the NFL. Throwing players open in college is much more forgiving than in the NFL. Reading defenses is much more forgiving in college than in the NFL. Look at Alex Smith. He became risk averse in the NFL because he was trying to learn at the NFL level while also not turning the ball over which some deem as an unforgivable sin in the NFL. Andy Reid moved off of Smith in KC because there were open throws that he wouldn't even attempt because he was so concerned with protecting the ball. This is why through two years Kyler still wants to SEE the player open vs leading the player to open space. He has never been able to learn throwing a player open in a safe and forgiving environment which the NFL level is not.

Kyler can't do things required in the NFL and still may not this year isn't comforting. How much time does he need?

1 year in the NFL is worth 1.5 in college at least. Not only because of more games but just the higher level of difficulty. It's more like 2, but let's be generous and say 1.5.

He had 1 and a bit college years. Plus 3 years college equivalent of NFL time.

That's equal to 4 years starting in college. So why is it beyond expectations to expect Justin Herbert or Andrew Luck levels of play next year?

 

[DVontel]

In your opinion.

Was Beasley a top guy when the Bills signed him?

Nuk is a top 2 WR1 in the league. AJ Green is a borderline HOF WR coming off a single down year. Kirk has plenty more to give and is moving to the slot where he should always have been. Conner and Edmonds are both accomplished receiving backs.

We have a top half of the league receiving room.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You're laying the ground work for more excuses and putting yourself in a no lose scenario.

If Kyler is good then the receiving room is good enough. If Kyler is average or there's no step forward its more "It's the receivers. We need Nuk, Julio, OBJ and Kelce for Kyler to reach his potential". No lose.

AJ Green hasn’t had a good season in 4 years & arguably a great one in 6. AJ is a borderline HOFer, but don’t make him something that he’s not & clearly has not been in multiple years. Stop overrating Kirk You’re doing with Kirk with how you perceive others are doing with Kyler.

However, I do agree Chase is underrated here.