Kyler Murray, you will become a Cardinal. It is....

[Jetstream Green]

The only thing inaccurate is this post. There is no point wasting my time with the murray fan club. You are all completely off base. No one is saying this but people on this board. I understand that most of you don't understand the QB position as much as you would like tp think you do. All the Pro scouts said it was between Mayfield and Rosen last year as far as accuracy goes. So they are wrong and you know better. Got it.

The Murray fan club just shifts and manipulates arguments to fit their narrative. In one breath you claim Mcvay had everything to do with Goffs turnaround yet in another you guys claim Rosen has mostly to do with his bad year and not coaching or talent. You can't have it both ways. There is way more that goes into playing the position than statistics. They never show the whole story.

The difference between what some are arguing for Rosen and what you guys are arguing for murray is blind faith. We admit Rosen did not do well and is not a lock to be good. We also admit Murray can be. You all however claim Rosen sucks and Murray will be a HOFamer. That is just silly.

There is no stat nor tape that tells you Murray can read a defense. None. Yes Rosen had problems with anticipation. Every Rookie QB does. The speed of the game is dramatically faster in the pros. There is no proof Murray is good at this either. And he will struggle as a Rookie that i can guarantee.

Completely ignoring all of Murray's red flags is beyond ignorant. He is not going to come into the league and light it up. It is not going to happen mark my words. He may be good but he will be a Rookie and play like a Rookie just like every other one has. You are all in for a rude awakening.

Fact, Rosen has always been consider a accurate QB and one of the reasons he was rated so highly with his mechanics. I guess some people look at stats and not the team surrounding him, some people then look at the win/lose column while ignoring the rest of the people on the roster. Funny how people concentrate on only missed plays from college to the pros on crap teams and ignore the great plays which go against their current agenda, but also would still like to ignore what the actual scouts and people see and why there are some teams that will be chompin' at the bit to get a steal with a Rosen trade if we select Murray number one... and I would not be upset with the pick, but this constant endorsing of Murray by saying Rosen is awful is a load of hot steaming crap because Josh still is a great prospectt but if we select Murray it's because the Cardinals think Kyler is extra special

 

[PACardsFan]

Really?

The Hall of Fame has a host of QB's whose completion % was better in the Pros than College.

Favre had a 54% completion rate in College.

If you were right, there would be no point in drafting a QB with less than 60% or having a QB coach on staff.

Anticipation may be innate, but, passing is mechanics.

And how long ago did Favre play? It’s reversed itself. If you can’t complete over 60%, and closer to 65% in college, then your chances of being elite in the NFL are reduced dramatically. Whatever the game of football was 20+ years ago no longer applies. The Mahomes, Mayfields, and Murrays of today wouldn’t get a shot at playing college football 25 years ago, let alone NFL football.

 

[PACardsFan]

The only thing inaccurate is this post. There is no point wasting my time with the murray fan club. You are all completely off base. No one is saying this but people on this board. I understand that most of you don't understand the QB position as much as you would like tp think you do. All the Pro scouts said it was between Mayfield and Rosen last year as far as accuracy goes. So they are wrong and you know better. Got it.

The Murray fan club just shifts and manipulates arguments to fit their narrative. In one breath you claim Mcvay had everything to do with Goffs turnaround yet in another you guys claim Rosen has mostly to do with his bad year and not coaching or talent. You can't have it both ways. There is way more that goes into playing the position than statistics. They never show the whole story.

The difference between what some are arguing for Rosen and what you guys are arguing for murray is blind faith. We admit Rosen did not do well and is not a lock to be good. We also admit Murray can be. You all however claim Rosen sucks and Murray will be a HOFamer. That is just silly.

There is no stat nor tape that tells you Murray can read a defense. None. Yes Rosen had problems with anticipation. Every Rookie QB does. The speed of the game is dramatically faster in the pros. There is no proof Murray is good at this either. And he will struggle as a Rookie that i can guarantee.

Completely ignoring all of Murray's red flags is beyond ignorant. He is not going to come into the league and light it up. It is not going to happen mark my words. He may be good but he will be a Rookie and play like a Rookie just like every other one has. You are all in for a rude awakening.

You probably said the same about Mahomes & Mayfield. The game of football, both college and Pro, has changed dramatically in the last 3-5 years. Murray’s red flags??? There is absolutely nothing that he’s demonstrated on the football field that points to red flags. Unless, of course, you’ll refer to him as a midget.

 

[dscher]

The only thing inaccurate is this post. There is no point wasting my time with the murray fan club. You are all completely off base. No one is saying this but people on this board. I understand that most of you don't understand the QB position as much as you would like tp think you do. All the Pro scouts said it was between Mayfield and Rosen last year as far as accuracy goes. So they are wrong and you know better. Got it.

The Murray fan club just shifts and manipulates arguments to fit their narrative. In one breath you claim Mcvay had everything to do with Goffs turnaround yet in another you guys claim Rosen has mostly to do with his bad year and not coaching or talent. You can't have it both ways. There is way more that goes into playing the position than statistics. They never show the whole story.

The difference between what some are arguing for Rosen and what you guys are arguing for murray is blind faith. We admit Rosen did not do well and is not a lock to be good. We also admit Murray can be. You all however claim Rosen sucks and Murray will be a HOFamer. That is just silly.

There is no stat nor tape that tells you Murray can read a defense. None. Yes Rosen had problems with anticipation. Every Rookie QB does. The speed of the game is dramatically faster in the pros. There is no proof Murray is good at this either. And he will struggle as a Rookie that i can guarantee.

Completely ignoring all of Murray's red flags is beyond ignorant. He is not going to come into the league and light it up. It is not going to happen mark my words. He may be good but he will be a Rookie and play like a Rookie just like every other one has. You are all in for a rude awakening.

Why get so personal? People just have their opinions. Like you have yours.. I guess we could all just state you are being ignorant for not acknowledging how great Murray could be as well. We only know what we can know. 5 years from now I'm sure we can all put a flag on these Murray/rosen threads and see what panned out. But in the mean time..we can handle these without the flame throwers. Imo at least

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

And how long ago did Favre play? It’s reversed itself. If you can’t complete over 60%, and closer to 65% in college, then your chances of being elite in the NFL are reduced dramatically. Whatever the game of football was 20+ years ago no longer applies. The Mahomes, Mayfields, and Murrays of today wouldn’t get a shot at playing college football 25 years ago, let alone NFL football.

Uh let's what those QBs are doing in year 2 through 5 before we say they are great these NFL defensive guys adjust pretty quick to all the gadgetry that comes and goes in the League

 

[Goldfield]

What I see is that I think Murray is actually going to be a better passer AND will probably net you 30-50 yards rushing a game. He's going to create MORE offense than Rosen is capable of.

You think teams are going to be able to run a base defense against Murray? LBs can't run with him. Teams might have to stay in nickel at all times, if not dime defenses.

Teams will likely try and keep a spy in but good luck trying to have a LB or S be the spy because they won't be able to keep up with Murray. That means teams will likely have to keep another CB, and that's going to open up more opportunities in the run game and pass game.

Correct, that’s why I think it happens. He is a mismatch nightmare at QB. Yes he’s small. But his game is too dynamic to matter.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Many scouts say that Rosen had a higher grade than Murray does now. I agree with them. I saw Rosen make NFL throws amidst duress more often than Murray did in college, and I saw Rosen do the same in the pros last year. He made plays from the pocket even if they were few and far between. I watched Murray play one game vs superior talent and he was awful vs Alabama every time it mattered. I don't see him having more success when he gets to the NFL, he is put in more of those situations, and is facing an even greater size disadvantage. I don't see Murray as being able to survive the beating that Rosen took last year. I never saw Murray be the timing and rhythm QB in college that I believe you need to be to be successful in the pros.

Can Kyler Murray be successful? Sure, but it is going to take a superior drive to work on his game game that few guys have, even in the NFL. I don't think that is worth betting on. I think it is better to bet on the guy who has shown the ability at the pro level despite awful conditions. The guy in Rosen who has had to endure constant change over his college and NFL career. The constant pressure of being the guy even when he was dealt a less talented supporting cast. Murray transferred instead of beating out an incumbent and then still had to wait for the incumbent to graduate in order to get a starting spot. He has never once outworked the other guy to win the job. I'm going to go with the guy who has endured hardship and still elevated his game over the guy who has never once shown he can.

I bolded 2 parts. Both have already been disproven.

The Alabama game may have been his best night in college football. No turnovers and well over 400 yards of total offense by him alone.

Heck.... the back shoulder throws to CeeDee Lamb in the game show the type timing and rhythm throws he is capable of.

Here is a link to a no frills no thrills honest look at his talents. I think you may be surprised if you actually give it an honest shot.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Krangodnzr]

The only thing inaccurate is this post. There is no point wasting my time with the murray fan club. You are all completely off base. No one is saying this but people on this board. I understand that most of you don't understand the QB position as much as you would like tp think you do. All the Pro scouts said it was between Mayfield and Rosen last year as far as accuracy goes. So they are wrong and you know better. Got it.

The Murray fan club just shifts and manipulates arguments to fit their narrative. In one breath you claim Mcvay had everything to do with Goffs turnaround yet in another you guys claim Rosen has mostly to do with his bad year and not coaching or talent. You can't have it both ways. There is way more that goes into playing the position than statistics. They never show the whole story.

The difference between what some are arguing for Rosen and what you guys are arguing for murray is blind faith. We admit Rosen did not do well and is not a lock to be good. We also admit Murray can be. You all however claim Rosen sucks and Murray will be a HOFamer. That is just silly.

There is no stat nor tape that tells you Murray can read a defense. None. Yes Rosen had problems with anticipation. Every Rookie QB does. The speed of the game is dramatically faster in the pros. There is no proof Murray is good at this either. And he will struggle as a Rookie that i can guarantee.

Completely ignoring all of Murray's red flags is beyond ignorant. He is not going to come into the league and light it up. It is not going to happen mark my words. He may be good but he will be a Rookie and play like a Rookie just like every other one has. You are all in for a rude awakening.

LOL I love having words put in my mouth.

I think Rosen can be a good NFL QB, but I think Murray can be great.

You don't pass on Aaron Rodgers because you have Josh McCown. That's an example of how I feel about the situation that has been demonstrated in the past for the Cardinals.

 

[GuernseyCard]

And how long ago did Favre play? It’s reversed itself. If you can’t complete over 60%, and closer to 65% in college, then your chances of being elite in the NFL are reduced dramatically. Whatever the game of football was 20+ years ago no longer applies. The Mahomes, Mayfields, and Murrays of today wouldn’t get a shot at playing college football 25 years ago, let alone NFL football.

Won't even try to make sense of this word salad.

 

[Goldfield]

I don't agree.

One thing that Keim is saying that is true, is that players fail more on character make up than anything else.

That is why I'm sold on Murray, I think he's a kid who has been groomed for this moment his entire life. Listen to what people who know him say about him. He's an extremely driven, competitive kid. Very football smart, he's been taught how to understand the QB position since he was a child.

His resume is nearly impeccable save his troubled start at Texas A&M.

And he has a chip on his shoulder because he’s had to prove himself his entire life because of his size.

 

[GuernseyCard]

LOL I love having words put in my mouth.

I think Rosen can be a good NFL QB, but I think Murray can be great.

You don't pass on Aaron Rodgers because you have Josh McCown. That's an example of how I feel about the situation that has been demonstrated in the past for the Cardinals.

Well, I'll venture that the only thing KM will have in common with Rodgers is dropping in the draft.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Fact, Rosen has always been consider a accurate QB and one of the reasons he was rated so highly with his mechanics. I guess some people look at stats and not the team surrounding him, some people then look at the win/lose column while ignoring the rest of the people on the roster. Funny how people concentrate on only missed plays from college to the pros on crap teams and ignore the great plays which go against their current agenda, but also would still like to ignore what the actual scouts and people see and why there are some teams that will be chompin' at the bit to get a steal with a Rosen trade if we select Murray number one... and I would not be upset with the pick, but this constant endorsing of Murray by saying Rosen is awful is a load of hot steaming crap because Josh still is a great prospectt but if we select Murray it's because the Cardinals think Kyler is extra special

Actually..... That isn't a fact.

He was always considered a thrower. And his mechanics are legit. But he has always been scouted as someone who can sail passes, shoot deep when other routes are wide open, and most importantly..... Be dis-proportionally affected by pressure.

Both sides of this argument need inspection, but I think it is imperative that we not go all "This is a fact" on people when it is clearly a perception.

Stats are facts.
What they did in games that we can see with our eyes are facts.
How we interpret what we see in those games is perception.
Scouting is perception.
JR's so called attitude is perception.
What combine measurements and drills tell us is perception.

 

[PACardsFan]

Uh let's what those QBs are doing in year 2 through 5 before we say they are great these NFL defensive guys adjust pretty quick to all the gadgetry that comes and goes in the League

That’s fair, but I doubt if Mahomes will be completely solved. He may not throw 50 again next year, but he’ll continue to be a handful. I’ll be shocked if Mayfield takes a step backwards also.

 

[HeHasRosen]

You probably said the same about Mahomes & Mayfield. The game of football, both college and Pro, has changed dramatically in the last 3-5 years. Murray’s red flags??? There is absolutely nothing that he’s demonstrated on the football field that points to red flags. Unless, of course, you’ll refer to him as a midget.

Nope. Mayfield was my #1. Mahomes my #2. I was clamoring for Lincoln Riley to be our next head coach. I know that style of offense can work.

I have never called him a midget. His smaller frame is a red flag. His baseball thing is a red flag. Can he read a D? Does he feel pressure well? Can he make the anticipation throws? You nor anyone can answer those things with certainty. He is not a sure fire plug and play prospect. Im sorry

Why get so personal? People just have their opinions. Like you have yours.. I guess we could all just state you are being ignorant for not acknowledging how great Murray could be as well. We only know what we can know. 5 years from now I'm sure we can all put a flag on these Murray/rosen threads and see what panned out. But in the mean time..we can handle these without the flame throwers. Imo at least

But that would be a lie. I have already acknowledged many times he CAN be great! Its annoying seeing the same crap spewed over and over again. Its time for you people to acknowledge the fact that Murray has the potential to bust. And bust hard. If you cant see that you are lying to yourself.

 

[PACardsFan]

Actually..... That isn't a fact.

He was always considered a thrower. And his mechanics are legit. But he has always been scouted as someone who can sail passes, shoot deep when other routes are wide open, and most importantly..... Be dis-proportionally affected by pressure.

Both sides of this argument need inspection, but I think it is imperative that we not go all "This is a fact" on people when it is clearly a perception.

Stats are facts.
What they did in games that we can see with our eyes are facts.
How we interpret what we see in those games is perception.
Scouting is perception.
JR's so called attitude is perception.
What combine measurements and drills tell us is perception.

Well said.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Actually..... That isn't a fact.

He was always considered a thrower. And his mechanics are legit. But he has always been scouted as someone who can sail passes, shoot deep when other routes are wide open, and most importantly..... Be dis-proportionally affected by pressure.

Both sides of this argument need inspection, but I think it is imperative that we not go all "This is a fact" on people when it is clearly a perception.

Stats are facts.
What they did in games that we can see with our eyes are facts.
How we interpret what we see in those games is perception.
Scouting is perception.
JR's so called attitude is perception.
What combine measurements and drills tell us is perception.

Since when is scouting divorced from facts?

And when did quantifiable measurements become perceptions?

 

[dscher]

Nope. Mayfield was my #1. Mahomes my #2. I was clamoring for Lincoln Riley to be our next head coach. I know that style of offense can work.

I have never called him a midget. His smaller frame is a red flag. His baseball thing is a red flag. Can he read a D? Does he feel pressure well? Can he make the anticipation throws? You nor anyone can answer those things with certainty. He is not a sure fire plug and play prospect. Im sorry




But that would be a lie. I have already acknowledged many times he CAN be great! Its annoying seeing the same crap spewed over and over again. Its time for you people to acknowledge the fact that Murray has the potential to bust. And bust hard. If you cant see that you are lying to yourself.

So you're saying this all comes down to who could bust the least?! I also think most can acknowledge, with both quarterbacks, that they can both equally turn out to be duds.. let's not get too pumped up about all this. As they say, it is just a game.

 

[HeHasRosen]

LOL I love having words put in my mouth.

I think Rosen can be a good NFL QB, but I think Murray can be great.

You don't pass on Aaron Rodgers because you have Josh McCown. That's an example of how I feel about the situation that has been demonstrated in the past for the Cardinals.

Right you haven't said that. As a matter of fact you were saying the complete opposite of what you are saying now 3 weeks ago. Ya flip flopped like a flapjack.

But you have gave Rosen the benefit of the doubt. Murray is not Aaron Rodgers and Josh Rosen is not Josh McCown though lol.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Since when is scouting divorced from facts?

And when did quantifiable measurements become perceptions?

Easy.

Scouting is divorced from fact when your gut starts to override what you see on tape.

Quantifiable combine measurements become perception when you take a 3-cone time, and turn it in to whether or not the prospect can rush the passer. Or read defenses. Or better yet..... A player that blew past every defender like Bo Jackson used to do in Tecmo Bowl , but he refuses to run at his pro day..... Now gets labelled with an ominous "RED FLAG"!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Right you haven't said that. As a matter of fact you were saying the complete opposite of what you are saying now 3 weeks ago. Ya flip flopped like a flapjack.

But you have gave Rosen the benefit of the doubt. Murray is not Aaron Rodgers and Josh Rosen is not Josh McCown though lol.

Yep I flipped...because everything I saw, flew in the face of the position I took.

I came to the conclusion that Murray is going to be a dynamic player, a better player than Josh Rosen.

And then I started digging into the concept that Rosen and Bosa/William's is worth more. Like @Chris_Sanders demonstrated, the top defensive player in the league, Aaron Donald is only worth two additional wins above replacement. That means it's not a slam dunk that Rosen + defender is better.

We will see soon enough. I can see the Cardinals going both ways, or a trade down, and every way is fine by me. But I prefer taking Murray now because he offers the team the best chance at winning.

Rosen was the next to worst QB in the league last year, under almost every circumstance. He's not a slam dunk to turn it around.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Easy.

Scouting is divorced from fact when your gut starts to override what you see on tape.

Quantifiable combine measurements become perception when you take a 3-cone time, and turn it in to whether or not the prospect can rush the passer. Or read defenses. Or better yet..... A player that blew past every defender like Bo Jackson used to do in Tecmo Bowl , but he refuses to run at his pro day..... Now gets labelled with an ominous "RED FLAG"!

So, I'm to understand that after what you describe as perceptions work their way through your above shoulder microprocessor they become facts to trust, but, not when it comes from people actually paid to do assessments.

 

[JeffGollin]

So...... I am part of a podcast network called Next Fan Up for thast 4 years or so. We have a weekly podcast with 32 contributing members. One superfan for each NFL team and I represent the Cardinals.

We are knee deep in our mock draft (each of us are the GM).

Here is what happened with Rosen:
I checked with the Dolphins, Bengals, Giants, Ravens, Broncos, Bucs, Jags, Pats, and Steelers. All of them laughed me out of the slack channel when I tried to get a 1st rounder.

I was able to get the giants Superfan to make two offers. Either their 2nd rounder, or their third rounder with Evan Engram.

I chose Engram & their 3rd rounder.

The entire channel said I won the trade and gave the Giants guy some crap. His defense is that the Tate signing made it clear that tanking wasn't their plan and that getting Rosen so cheap was a coup for them..

Fine.... Whatever..... Take it for what you will.

What do you guys think about that?

Rosen may not be valued by the rest of the NFL after last year.

p.s. Of course I took Kyler 1st.

A bunch of fans have an opinion. Fine. End of story.

 

[HeHasRosen]

So you're saying this all comes down to who could bust the least?! I also think most can acknowledge, with both quarterbacks, that they can both equally turn out to be duds.. let's not get too pumped up about all this. As they say, it is just a game.

Lol of course not. Don't take it personally dude just a fiery guy on and off the field. I get why people like Murray but the hype is way overblown. I would rather build from the inside out. Sure up the lines on both sides. Get some playmakers in the next couple drafts. Let KK and Clements groom the young QB that has a year under his belt. If Rosen sucks go for Tua or Lawrence who I like much more than Murray. Great teams win superbowls. Not decent teams with great QBs.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Lol of course not. Don't take it personally dude just a fiery guy on and off the field. I get why people like Murray but the hype is way overblown. I would rather build from the inside out. Sure up the lines on both sides. Get some playmakers in the next couple drafts. Let KK and Clements groom the young QB that has a year under his belt. If Rosen sucks go for Tua or Lawrence who I like much more than Murray. Great teams win superbowls. Not decent teams with great QBs.

That's assuming they have a shot at Tua or Lawrence. If they do, then Keim has been fired and possibly Kingsbury.

 

[dscher]

Lol of course not. Don't take it personally dude just a fiery guy on and off the field. I get why people like Murray but the hype is way overblown. I would rather build from the inside out. Sure up the lines on both sides. Get some playmakers in the next couple drafts. Let KK and Clements groom the young QB that has a year under his belt. If Rosen sucks go for Tua or Lawrence who I like much more than Murray. Great teams win superbowls. Not decent teams with great QBs.

I agree with where youre coming from.. I'm not opposed to any of it. We have plenty of holes to fill and defense still most definitely gets ya championships. (I had that same fiery defensive mind set) So I get it. But, we can just diverge on opinions about this one because I see Murray being too dynamic to pass on. If he can provide half of what Russell Wilson can then it's still worth it for me.. but that's me.