Marion

[elindholm]

If we think Marion gets paid too much, don't you think Minnesota thinks the same thing? That decreases Marion's value.

Right now I'd say that Garnett and Marion are overpaid by comparable amounts. Garnett is a better player, but he makes more, and his contract is a killer for any team trying to get better. Marion is paid like a superstar and performs like a borderline All-Star.

But Barbosa is no slouch, and the Hawks pick is probably higher than any other pick that the Wolves would get offered. So basically, they are getting:

1. A very good player who will help the team stay competitive while they are rebuilding.
2. A young talent who is already pretty good and may have star potential.
3. A potentially high lottery pick in the fairly deep 2007 draft.

Is that a great deal? No. But I'll be very surprised if anyone comes up with something better. Just look at all of the other trades involving superstars: Getting "fair value" for them is a lot harder than it looks.

 

[Chaplin]

Any pick in the current draft that isn't a lottery pick has negative value.

That is simply not true, but I'll assume you mean this as an exaggeration.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

That is simply not true, but I'll assume you mean this as an exaggeration.

No I fully believe it. Have you looked at the players that will be available to draft in the 20s?

It's awful. Second round talent with a first round guaranteed salary. Take a look at nbadraft.net and look at the players from 17 on. Ugh..

You can bet that the Suns will look to give away those picks so they can resign guys like Diaw.

 

[ozzfloyd]

Marion, Barbosa and a #1 is not a bad offer at all. Much better than the Odom + Bynum for KG a lot of Laker fans think might get a deal done, that's for sure.

 

[tlim]

This is my point exactly. It's a pipe dream.

Now if you wanted to talk Marion, Barbosa, and Diaw, that might get it done with Diaw being the key player in the deal.

Yeah. Of the three, Diaw is the gem. Barbosa is a good, but Diaw has the physical attributes, the mental toughness, and a good outside shot. Diaw >>> Marion >> Barbosa. Trading away Diaw is an awfully bitter pill to swallow.

Like others have said, only if KG says I want to leave will it happen. So far, he's griped and cried about the management. He's done that for how many years now? 9 years is it? His one year to get to the WCF, he didn't whine after losing in the playoffs. And how many times has he asked to be traded? What's going to be different this time around? Nada.

 

[Cheesebeef]

jeez - I guess Marc Stein must HATE Shawn Marion also to write such ridiculous trash about him here - surely that's the only reason he would write such things - right. Couldn't be THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION (to use another unnamed poster's rationale).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-060511

No mystery in the desert scoring line Wednesday night.

No surprise that the Suns failed to reach 100 points for the fourth time in these playoffs ... and dropped to 0-4 in those games.

How can it be surprising when the Suns, who go into every game knowing they'll be outrebounded to some degree, surrender 19 offensive boards, counter with a mere 26 rebounds total and get pounded by a 30-6 margin in second-chance points?

Right. It's the most easily explained loss of their postseason.

Trouble is, Phoenix does have a mystery to deal with in the wake of a Game 2 pounding inflicted by the Clippers. The mystery is Shawn Marion's ongoing playoff malaise.

Marion was noticeably quiet for the first 3½ games of the first-round marathon with the Lakers, but the Suns thought their Matrix was back for good with the aggression and activity he began to flash against Lamar Odom starting with the second half of Game 4.

After two games in the second round, Phoenix might be forced to renew its Marion search.

In Game 1, even though Marion totaled 20 points and 15 boards, he stunned his own team by dropping multiple uncontested lobs. His hands and shooting aim looked uncharacteristically shaky throughout the Suns' 130-123 win.

Things only got shakier in Game 2. Suns coach Mike D'Antoni called for a lob play on the home team's first possession to get Marion going and Marion promptly slammed it home. But Marion's next five touches were nightmarish and helped the Clips establish the early domination that lasted all night.

In fairly rapid succession, Marion was called for carrying as he drove into the paint ... drew no rim with a 3-point attempt that caromed off the backboard ... hurried one of his trademark baseline push shots and missed short ... missed a baseline 3-pointer short ... and then failed to convert an alley-oop that's typically cake for him.

Marion went on to miss three free throws and finished with a muted 13 points and six rebounds. Which means there won't be a Sun to watch closer in Friday's Game 3.

Marion eventually found ways to be effective against Odom's bothersome length in the first series and, like each of his teammates, already has a familiarity with the building he'll be visiting for the next two games, which has to help.

The Clips, though, are far bigger, deeper and stronger inside than the Lakers, which means Phoenix needs its regular-season Matrix even more than it did in Round 1.

At 6-7 and 225 pounds, Marion is supposed to have trouble checking Elton Brand or Chris Kaman. But he's also supposed to be a matchup problem for any Clippers assigned to guard him.

Unless they have some sort of mysterious hold on him.

-- Marc Stein

 

[Gaddabout]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lakers8may08,1,5702788.story?coll=la-headlines-sports

There had been speculation that Kevin Garnett would be traded this summer, but Minnesota owner Glen Taylor said he would not deal his All-Star center, and insiders say the Timberwolves are going to try to acquire Stephon Marbury to placate Garnett.

 

[elindholm]

Things can change.

 

[Nasser22]

I think you guys are overreacting. Take away the first 3 games of the playoffs and Marion has been playing right at his averages, and the only other game he played bad(yesturday) he had four blocks so he helped us a lot there. I don't think we should trade him next year, especially if we have to give up Barbosa and two first rounders. I like Garnett so I don't mind getting him but not for that much. Trading Diaw, Marion and Barbosa though is just so stupid it's not even worth a post. You don't trade a future all-star in Diaw who can do so much, a current all-star in Marion who hasn't been as bad as you guys are saying and pretty good future guard in Barbosa for a 30-year old who probably won't win us a championship with Diaw, Marion, Barbosa gone, Nash getting older, and House who has been horrible in the playoffs having a bigger role. We'll probably get back to the WCF again though, whoopie, but the team we have now, when healthy, can win us a championship.

 

[ozzfloyd]

I think you guys are overreacting. Take away the first 3 games of the playoffs and Marion has been playing right at his averages, and the only other game he played bad(yesturday) he had four blocks so he helped us a lot there.

Meaning he has played poorly in 4 of 9 playoff games this year. That's pretty bad...

 

[Nasser22]

Yeah, but even take 6 out of 9 and he's right at his averages. He's been playing better in the playoffs the last two years and I meant even when he isn't playing well he contributes somehow.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Meaning he has played poorly in 4 of 9 playoff games this year. That's pretty bad...

seriously - besides the fact that in the other 5 games, he STILL haasn't even reached his season averages of 22 and 12.

You just made the statement that even though he's been bad in almost half our games and ALMOST at his averages (i.e. still below average) in the other 5 games - he's not playing that bad? Come on now - it's okay to call a spade a spade and Marion a Tortilla.

 

[az1965]

I don't care what you do during the regular season, but if you can't show up for the big games in the post-season then its all for nothing...

 

[nowagimp]

seriously - besides the fact that in the other 5 games, he STILL haasn't even reached his season averages of 22 and 12.

You just made the statement that even though he's been bad in almost half our games and ALMOST at his averages (i.e. still below average) in the other 5 games - he's not playing that bad? Come on now - it's okay to call a spade a spade and Marion a Tortilla.

Playoff defenses are tougher, the opposing teams are better, and the games are played at a slower pace, generally. I wouldnt expect a cursory examination of stats to be all that revealing. Thats an oversimplistic view. Shawn has blown some easy shots, but, dont expect the stats to stabilize at 9 games played. KT played alot of games with shawn in the regular season, but none in the playoffs. I expect that the presence of KT on the floor influences shawns effectiveness. The argument is apples and oranges. Lets see what develops for the rest of this series before we make sweeping, irrelevant, judgements about shawn marion.

 

[myrondizzo]

I don't care what you do during the regular season, but if you can't show up for the big games in the post-season then its all for nothing...

and if you dont play well enough during the regular season then you'll be fishing so that doesnt matter either. he came out flat in the 2nd game big deal so did the rest of the team.

 

[az1965]

and if you dont play well enough during the regular season then you'll be fishing so that doesnt matter either. he came out flat in the 2nd game big deal so did the rest of the team.

No, but he needs to keep his freaking mouth shut about how he plays like an mvp. If he does that, then its not that bothersome.

The second thing is, it is not just the 2nd game about about most of the series agains Fakers? How about last year? I will give him the credit for that huge huge offensive rebound in game 6 that saved our season. Other than that he has not performed to his talent level and his stupid claims.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

No, but he needs to keep his freaking mouth shut about how he plays like an mvp. If he does that, then its not that bothersome.

The second thing is, it is not just the 2nd game about about most of the series agains Fakers? How about last year? I will give him the credit for that huge huge offensive rebound in game 6 that saved our season. Other than that he has not performed to his talent level and his stupid claims.

Last year Marion was fantastic until he met Bruce Bowen. He was really good against Memphis and Dallas.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Last year Marion was fantastic until he met Bruce Bowen. He was really good against Memphis and Dallas.

your absolutely right - and if he had more than two good series in SIX YEARS of playoff basketball (and 7 years in the league - I mean if Chris is gonna laugh at KG's stats in the playoff the last two years, wwe might as well be consistent... unlike Shawn), and he kept his mumbling mouth shut about being an MVP - he wouldn't get the heat he does here - but he hasn't and he did - so, until he proves that the Mavs and Dallas series were the norm instead of the exception to the rule, he'll continue to be criticized and rightly so.

 

[Evil Ash]

your absolutely right - and if he had more than two good series in SIX YEARS of playoff basketball (and 7 years in the league - I mean if Chris is gonna laugh at KG's stats in the playoff the last two years, wwe might as well be consistent... unlike Shawn), and he kept his mumbling mouth shut about being an MVP - he wouldn't get the heat he does here - but he hasn't and he did - so, until he proves that the Mavs and Dallas series were the norm instead of the exception to the rule, he'll continue to be criticized and rightly so.

Isn't the MVP a regular season award or am I missing something here?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Isn't the MVP a regular season award or am I missing something here?

give me a freaking break Ash - so should we be waiting then for Shawn to come out now and say he's NOT in the class of Playoff MVPs because he knows he sucks there? I mean if he's just talking about what kind of regular season player he is (and we ALL know that an MVP is expected to play big in the playoffs) than maybe you're onto something even bigger and Shawnb's brain really DOES change in the playoffs... maybe in his brain he actually figures it's the PLAYOFFS - I'm not supposed to be an MVP player here.

Come on now. Respect is earned ultimately one place and one place only - the playoffs - period. You know it and I know it. And unfortuinately Marion knows and it scares the beejesus out of him.

 

[Nash]

did one of the posts on ths thread suggest Artest? please.. no! the last thing a team like Suns that runs on chemistry needs. he could destroy everything with his temperamental nature.
and those who keep repeating and defending Marion saying he's a good third option, or he's decent when on his position - that would be fine for a team like the Bucks or the say the Sonics who just want to be 'good'

Here, we're looking to make the Suns 'great' which means winning a championship and that is a plausible thought if we get a great team together for next season.
We have a 2 time MVP point guard, a phenom, who is 32 yrs old and fast running out of time.
So next year is our best shot at the title and the Suns should make it happen, atleast for Nash's sake.

Amare can't be trusted - his knee, I mean. no one knows how long he will last or how good he will be. KT, the same. We cannot wait for a gradual devlopment like what happened to the Pistons because we don't have the luxury of time.

Whoever needs to be traded to get players who will take us the distance in the title race, has to be.

Dang ! we're talking about winning it all you guys!
as the wise man (me) once said:
'good ain't good enough'

 

[Maximus]

Yes, Marion had a bad game. But, in my opinion, he plus Nash plus Dantoni are what makes the Suns the up-tempo team they are. Without Stoudamire this year, those 3 are the only constants carried over from last year. If they trade Marion without getting speed in return, this team begins to lose its identity.

In addition to his own speed, Marion allows the entire team to play small and fast, because of his great rebounding for how small and quick he is. Suns can get rebounds without having to put a fatty in there.

I'm telling you, Marion contributes a lot to this team, and it was evident that the Suns fell apart when he had a bad game.

That said, if we had to trade him, I think KG would fit our style very well, and would keep the team quick. Not many other possibilities would do that though.

I say keep him. He stays out of trouble, fits with the chemistry, and is very multidimensional and is strong all around.

Maximus

 

[Cheesebeef]

did one of the posts on ths thread suggest Artest? please.. no! the last thing a team like Suns that runs on chemistry needs. he could destroy everything with his temperamental nature.
and those who keep repeating and defending Marion saying he's a good third option, or he's decent when on his position - that would be fine for a team like the Bucks or the say the Sonics who just want to be 'good'

Here, we're looking to make the Suns 'great' which means winning a championship and that is a plausible thought if we get a great team together for next season.
We have a 2 time MVP point guard, a phenom, who is 32 yrs old and fast running out of time.
So next year is our best shot at the title and the Suns should make it happen, atleast for Nash's sake.

Amare can't be trusted - his knee, I mean. no one knows how long he will last or how good he will be. KT, the same. We cannot wait for a gradual devlopment like what happened to the Pistons because we don't have the luxury of time.

Whoever needs to be traded to get players who will take us the distance in the title race, has to be.

Dang ! we're talking about winning it all you guys!
as the wise man (me) once said:
'good ain't good enough'

boy - couldn't agree with the above more. People are thinking Marion can be that guy when Amare comes back but that's being EXTREMELY optomistic and somewhat naive because bottom line - next year and probably even the year after that - AMARE WILL NOT BE WHAT HE WAS - it' takes at least a couple years for these guys to get back to what they were after micro-fracture - if EVER AT ALL - thus, what we have this year plus Amare and Kurt - I FEAR - won't be good enough to take advantage of Nash as he gets older.

But, that being said, if we can't get KG for Marion, Barbs and the Hawks pick, I wouldn't include Marion in any other deal for anyone else we could realistically get. I know it may seem like I'm really hard on Marion and that I want him off the team in the worst way, but I do know he fits our system very well and would be PERFECT if Amare never got hurt - but gfact is - Amare did - he won't be completely for a couple years and by then our window will have past. However, if you upgrade with Garnett somehow with Marion involved, this team wins the title next year and for the next two after that because Garnett makes up for what we're missing with a still rehabbing Amare where Marion can't.

Okay - I think I've said my peace and probably pissed off people enough (not my intention - this is just a good place to vent) and I'll drop this now... until Marion craps the bed in the next game.

 

[Nasser22]

Yes, you have pissed me off, but I can't stay mad at a Suns fan! :-D

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, you have pissed me off, but I can't stay mad at a Suns fan! :-D

Good to hear! Like I said when I picked a fight with a tree-trunk at AWA after I got kicked out of the greatest Suns v. Lakers comeback of all time in 1996 (when we came back from 11 down in the last minute and won on Finley's buzzer beater - to be fair - I got kicked out for yelling at the corporate suck-ups for not cheering and chanting DEFENSE! DEFENSE!)... OH, YEAH, BACK TO THE TREE-TRUNK IN THE PARKING LOT - once I saw him, I told him, fellow Suns fans shouldn't be fighting - he agreed... stuck his hand otu to shake and then grabbed me and punched me in the face! I then proceeded to follow his car down two parking levels and tried to kick his windows in - next thing I remember, I woke up with a broken bone in my neck, a black eye and fifteen stitches in my head.

Moral of the story - DON'T STAY MAD AT SUNS FANS!

Let's see Marion smack me in the mouth tomorrow and shut me up the way the tree-trunk did back in 96!