Warner taregeted by others

[CardLogic]

Okay, let's look at this a different way. What specifically would signing Warner to a $12-14M deal keep the Cardinals from doing?

Does anyone think they're actually going to spend all the way to the cap limit?

Does anyone think they're going to make a blockbuster offer to a FA?

Does anyone think there's a FA worth a really big contract?

Let's stop acting like it's our own personal money and realize that a 1-2 year deal is going to look bigger than it actually is. If he was looking for a 5-6 year deal he would be crazy to expect $14-16M but for a two year deal where he has to get his money in those two years, it isn't that outrageous.

Nice post.

I don't consider each player contract in a vacumn, but rather think about how each negotiation and contract impacts other individuals. Take the Pittsburgh method for example. The have made it know that they will not re-negotiate a contract that has more than one year left. It's a policy and players and ,perhaps more importantly, their agents know that it would be a waste of time and and energy to attempt to initiate negotiations prematurely. So it doesn't happen!

I think the Cardinals FO may have gotten it right, that they are not going to overpay to win or keep FA's. If that assumption of mine is correct, I think it's a good policy.

The point being that how you behave/negotiate with one player will be assumed to be how you are going to negotiate with all players. It sets boundries and precedents for much smoother operations ongoing.

 

[azsouthendzone]

The ONLY reason Warner is looking for a big deal is because he knows that if he flames next year he could get cut and Leinart would be the guy. He keeps saying that money guarantees things. I think he is trying to get paid enough that it would keep Leinart on the bench even if he becomes Fumlerooskie Mcgee again. That is really what this is all about.

 

[moklerman]

The point being that how you behave/negotiate with one player will be assumed to be how you are going to negotiate with all players. It sets boundries and precedents for much smoother operations ongoing.

I agree and think the Anquan situation is a much more slippery slope for Graves. However, if the team continues to (apparently from what I've seen) lowball Warner, the player perception can work the other way. Caving in to re-structuring a contract or overpaying is one thing but pinching pennies with the starting QB of a Super Bowl team is far different.

I don't think they're being cheap per se, but they are being frugal. With the money they have and the uncapped year on the horizon it seems like hardball with the wrong guy.

 

[moklerman]

I think he is trying to get paid enough that it would keep Leinart on the bench even if he becomes Fumlerooskie Mcgee again. That is really what this is all about.

He's already stated so. It's a big part of his approach in all of this. Unless he breaks something again, I don't think the fumbling will be an issue any more than Tiki's problems ever resurfaced once he figured it out.

 

[john h]

per ESPNRadio........Bears and Vikings. He didn't get into specifics (from what I heard, in the sense that he was just about done talking about it), but he did say it was a bad day to be a Cards fan because now they'll have to pony up and match the offer(s).

Anyone?

Did I not read that he said he would either play for Airizona or retire?

 

[john h]

I honestly think he'll be back here or retire.

Very much agree. I think he has said as much. He is not in dire need of money and is a family man and likely to stay in AZ.

 

[moklerman]

Did I not read that he said he would either play for Airizona or retire?

He's been saying that he didn't want to play for anyone else and couldn't foresee moving his family again and certainly didn't want to move but $4M-$8M more over two years would probably change anyone's mind.

 

[HookemCards]

Okay, let's look at this a different way. What specifically would signing Warner to a $12-14M deal keep the Cardinals from doing?

Does anyone think they're actually going to spend all the way to the cap limit?

Does anyone think they're going to make a blockbuster offer to a FA?

Does anyone think there's a FA worth a really big contract?

Let's stop acting like it's our own personal money and realize that a 1-2 year deal is going to look bigger than it actually is. If he was looking for a 5-6 year deal he would be crazy to expect $14-16M but for a two year deal where he has to get his money in those two years, it isn't that outrageous.

I haven't seen a list of the 2009 QB contracts but Warner asking to be top 5(which I'm assuming his agent has access to the other numbers out there) isn't crazy. It would be crazy to give him a long term deal at this point but not to pay him for the next year or two.

Maybe they don't have to make a few extra cuts, or maybe they sign another player with the 4 mil, its called smart salary cap management. You say we are acting like its our money, but you are acting as if you are one of Warner's kids or his agent. Your argument is so one sided, I understand you are Warner fan first, but the rest of us are Cards fans first. You act as if 10m is an insult, and that he will be strapped financially without the extra 4 mil.

Let me ask you this, do you think Warner puts up the kind of numbers he put up last year playing for any other team in the league? One without Fitzgerald, Boldin, Breaston and Haley as OC. There is absolutely no way he comes close with the system and WRs in St.L, or SF, or Chi, or Min. If only Manning would retire, he could have some leverage by posturing about the Colts making him an offer, cause that is the only place he would come close to last years numbers.

I'm sure you could rationalize cutting Fitzgerald if it meant Warner playing for the Cards a few more years at whatever salary he and his agent wanted.

 

[Renz]

Let's stop acting like it's our own personal money and realize that a 1-2 year deal is going to look bigger than it actually is. If he was looking for a 5-6 year deal he would be crazy to expect $14-16M but for a two year deal where he has to get his money in those two years, it isn't that outrageous.

It's not 'our' personal money, but it's someone's. Stop bringing up the fact that it's Kurt's last contract like it makes any difference in these negotiations.

Should the Cardinals pay Kurt more than they think he's worth because it's Kurt's 'last contract'? It's completely irrelevant. It would be like going to your boss and asking for a raise because your landlord raised your rent. The fact that your bills went up has nothing to do with your job performance.

Kurt's retiring in two years has no bearing on his market value. If anything, it decreases it.

 

[Perfectionist]

Kurt's retiring in two years has no bearing on his market value. If anything, it decreases it.

Your last sentence shows his retiring in two years would have a bearing on his market value.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

This is the NFL version of Dodgers/Manny Ramierez: We've got a team that is really the only fit for an impact player that is offering more than a fair dollar contract. The player knows it and the team knows it.

There really is not a team in the league that is going to offer more than the Cardinals are, yet the player and agent think they should get a lot more even if the market isnt there.

I am confident the Cards have made a very fair offer to Warner and I will not bemoan the team if Warner decides to retire or go elsewhere. We all know the media is waiting to tag the Cardinals with the "cheap" tag and that is ridiculous, for the team is offering Warner between 10 and 12 million per.

This is my final comment on this situation until it is resolved.

 

[lobo]

This is my final comment on this situation until it is resolved.

What is encouraging to me is that the majority of our members are taking a very non-emotional ( the sky is NOT falling) approach to this. I want him to sign with the team, but I also think it is time to find out what they have in No. 7. The extra 3/4 million can be put to good use to keep the balance of the core in place while this window is open to win again.

 

[moklerman]

I'm sure you could rationalize cutting Fitzgerald if it meant Warner playing for the Cards a few more years at whatever salary he and his agent wanted.

Then you'd be wrong.

It's not 'our' personal money, but it's someone's. Stop bringing up the fact that it's Kurt's last contract like it makes any difference in these negotiations.

You don't think that's part of the holdup on his side of things? This is it and he and his agent know it. They are approaching this contract a lot differently than the last 3 that he's signed. Warner doesn't want to play his last deal at a discount(again).

Should the Cardinals pay Kurt more than they think he's worth because it's Kurt's 'last contract'?

Should the Cardinals fart around with hardballing a guy that no one on the team is going to blink about getting a nice contract? And just because they don't get Warner for the price they hope, doesn't mean they're overpaying.

This is the NFL version of Dodgers/Manny Ramierez:

And the Manny situation is a good example of things not being fully apparent. The Dodgers are screwing around with a guy they should really sign. They leaked the terms of their last offer to make Manny look bad with misleading information. 2/45 sounds pretty good but it was structured in a ridiculous way. The Dodgers had to know Boras/Manny would reject it. $10M in '09 and $10M in '10(option year) and the rest deferred over 5+ years with no interest? And Boras even countered with 2/55 under those types of terms since there was no interest involved and the Dodgers rejected it. On top of which, the Dodgers got further in the playoffs than they have in 20 years thanks to Manny when they weren't even paying him anything last year. They are being miserly and screwing around with a guy that is willing, wanting and ready to sign. Colleti and McCourt are trying their hardest to screw things up.

Let's hope Graves and Bidwill don't get to that point. Mike Lombardi pointed out that sometimes with some players a team just has to pay that little bit more and I agree with him. I didn't have a problem with it with Fitzgerald and I don't have a problem with it with Warner. I think he's going to give two more really good years of production on the field and his leadership, marketing value and representation of the team will more than make up for whatever extra the Cardinals think they're having to spend. Which is still debatable whether or not it's even extra.

If he produces like he has been for over two years worth of games then $12-14M is no problem at all and if he doesn't, the team's only on the hook for the gaurenteed part in '10 when Leinart will still be at a lower salary and his escalators kick in at the end of the year.

Some have mentioned that it's important for the Cardinals to approach this the right way in terms of future negotiations with other players and I agree. But I don't think hardballing the QB of the team when it's already pissing off the lockerroom leader(Q) sends the right message either. I think the players can at least understand the Q situation as a business situation but I really don't think they're going to be as understanding about losing Warner over a relatively small amount of money. He's played hurt, played incentive laden deals, played at a discount, fought for his job and never asked to renegotiate and I don't think the players would agree with the hardball tactics and I think this approach is going to hurt the team more than it's going to help over saving some money on a contract. A team needs a good QB in the NFL.

 

[HookemCards]

Then you'd be wrong.
You don't think that's part of the holdup on his side of things? This is it and he and his agent know it. They are approaching this contract a lot differently than the last 3 that he's signed. Warner doesn't want to play his last deal at a discount(again).
Should the Cardinals fart around with hardballing a guy that no one on the team is going to blink about getting a nice contract? And just because they don't get Warner for the price they hope, doesn't mean they're overpaying.
And the Manny situation is a good example of things not being fully apparent. The Dodgers are screwing around with a guy they should really sign. They leaked the terms of their last offer to make Manny look bad with misleading information. 2/45 sounds pretty good but it was structured in a ridiculous way. The Dodgers had to know Boras/Manny would reject it. $10M in '09 and $10M in '10(option year) and the rest deferred over 5+ years with no interest? And Boras even countered with 2/55 under those types of terms since there was no interest involved and the Dodgers rejected it. On top of which, the Dodgers got further in the playoffs than they have in 20 years thanks to Manny when they weren't even paying him anything last year. They are being miserly and screwing around with a guy that is willing, wanting and ready to sign. Colleti and McCourt are trying their hardest to screw things up.

Let's hope Graves and Bidwill don't get to that point. Mike Lombardi pointed out that sometimes with some players a team just has to pay that little bit more and I agree with him. I didn't have a problem with it with Fitzgerald and I don't have a problem with it with Warner. I think he's going to give two more really good years of production on the field and his leadership, marketing value and representation of the team will more than make up for whatever extra the Cardinals think they're having to spend. Which is still debatable whether or not it's even extra.

If he produces like he has been for over two years worth of games then $12-14M is no problem at all and if he doesn't, the team's only on the hook for the gaurenteed part in '10 when Leinart will still be at a lower salary and his escalators kick in at the end of the year.

Some have mentioned that it's important for the Cardinals to approach this the right way in terms of future negotiations with other players and I agree. But I don't think hardballing the QB of the team when it's already pissing off the lockerroom leader(Q) sends the right message either. I think the players can at least understand the Q situation as a business situation but I really don't think they're going to be as understanding about losing Warner over a relatively small amount of money. He's played hurt, played incentive laden deals, played at a discount, fought for his job and never asked to renegotiate and I don't think the players would agree with the hardball tactics and I think this approach is going to hurt the team more than it's going to help over saving some money on a contract. A team needs a good QB in the NFL.

And if Warner signs with the Rams and Niners, and doesn't put up the same type of numbers. Meanwhile Leinart is taking us to the playoffs, putting up big numbers with Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston, are you going to be back saying that Leinart should be getting 14.5 mil. My guess is you'll be on the Rams or Niners board telling them how lucky they are to have him.

 

[moklerman]

And if Warner signs with the Rams and Niners, and doesn't put up the same type of numbers. Meanwhile Leinart is taking us to the playoffs, putting up big numbers with Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston, are you going to be back saying that Leinart should be getting 14.5 mil. My guess is you'll be on the Rams or Niners board telling them how lucky they are to have him.

Why don't we just bring Marino out of retirement while we're condemning me with outlandish scenarios. The main problem with your scenario is that I'm a Leinart fan. Skeptic, but fan. I'll be following the Cardinals when Warner leaves because I'm a big Kool-Aid drinker of Whis and huge fan of Fitzgerald. I still go to Rams boards, never went to a Giants board and I doubt that Warner will play for any other team.

 

[perivolaki]

Just out of curiosity Cardlogic, is there anything in Warner's career that hasn't defied conventional wisdom & logic? Was this year not a perfect example of that? How many 37 year olds have done what he did this year? Other than conventional wisdom that would say Warner should drop off next year b/c of his age, is there anything in his performance this year or since that would suggest that to be a given? His whole career is about beating the odds at every turn. Anything in his performance that would indicate this next year to be the exception? Please don't use his age, b/c age should have been the issue this year. Was it? Next.

You've got to take his age into consideration. It catches every player and Warner is no exception. Will it catch him next year? We don't know, but you have to factor it in. The older he get's the more likely it is. To just ignore it is foolish and doesn't take into account the best interests of the Cardinals.

 

[HookemCards]

Why don't we just bring Marino out of retirement while we're condemning me with outlandish scenarios. The main problem with your scenario is that I'm a Leinart fan. Skeptic, but fan. I'll be following the Cardinals when Warner leaves because I'm a big Kool-Aid drinker of Whis and huge fan of Fitzgerald. I still go to Rams boards, never went to a Giants board and I doubt that Warner will play for any other team.

You call yourself a Card fan, but your vision is clouded by your devotion to Warner. How can you possibly say that he is worth 14.5 mil, and turn around and say you have the best interest of the team in mind?

Name me one team that Warner could go to and put up the numbers he put up last year. I can name at least 5 QBs that could probably put up Warner's numbers given the talent and system on the Cards last year. Brees (5 mil), Rivers (9.3 mil), Cutler (6.5 mil), P. Manning (11.5 mil), McNabb (6.3 mil), Ryan (6.6 mil), Pennington (5.75 mil), Schaub (5 mil).

You seem to think Warner is the system. You forget that Boldin put up 1300 yards as a rookie with Jeff Blake throwing to him. Do you really think Fitz's success is predicated on Warner. Warner is a piece of the system, a very good part no doubt, but we'll put up big next year no matter who the QB is.

 

[moklerman]

You call yourself a Card fan, but your vision is clouded by your devotion to Warner. How can you possibly say that he is worth 14.5 mil, and turn around and say you have the best interest of the team in mind?

Because I think Warner will repeat what he did in '08 which I would pay top 5 money to have for my team. Because I think it will be a short term deal that won't hurt the team or keep them from signing whoever they're targeting. Because I'm looking at the price of 1 year of performance and not the average price of the contracts that you listed. And because I'm not saying he should get 14.5 but that he should get more than 10.

Name me one team that Warner could go to and put up the numbers he put up last year.

New England. Oh, you mean name one team that is currently willing to sign him? Well, none that I know of. I don't know of any confirmed offers or interest just rumors but I'd give Minnesota a real strong chance in the post season if he went there if we're just talking hypothetically.

I can name at least 5 QBs that could probably put up Warner's numbers given the talent and system on the Cards last year. Brees (5 mil), Rivers (9.3 mil), Cutler (6.5 mil), P. Manning (11.5 mil), McNabb (6.3 mil), Ryan (6.6 mil), Pennington (5.75 mil), Schaub (5 mil).

Now Warner is no better than Matt Ryan or Matt Schaub?!?

There's no arguing that the Cardinals have some talent on offense but I think you're greatly diminishing what Warner brings to the equation. But, let's say for a moment that those guys could replicate what Warner did during the regular season. Would you care to argue that they would offer what Warner can do in the playoffs? I'm pretty sure he's got them beat by far in that category.

 

[HookemCards]

Because I think Warner will repeat what he did in '08 which I would pay top 5 money to have for my team. Because I think it will be a short term deal that won't hurt the team or keep them from signing whoever they're targeting. Because I'm looking at the price of 1 year of performance and not the average price of the contracts that you listed. And because I'm not saying he should get 14.5 but that he should get more than 10.

How does it not affect the teams ability to sign targeted FAs. Bottom line is the team will have 4 mil less per year than they would if he signed the 10 mil contract. Also by your logic , Rivers and Brees should be demanding to restructure their deals to pay them 15 to 18 mil per year for the remainder of their contract.

New England. Oh, you mean name one team that is currently willing to sign him? Well, none that I know of. I don't know of any confirmed offers or interest just rumors but I'd give Minnesota a real strong chance in the post season if he went there if we're just talking hypothetically.

You really think that Warner would put up 4000 yds and 30 TDs with Minn.? Sure they'd probably make the playoffs but they almost made it this year with the 2 headed monster Tavarius Frerotte. Theres a dozen QBs in the league that could take Minnie to the playoffs.

Now Warner is no better than Matt Ryan or Matt Schaub?!?

No I agree that Warner is better and more experienced, but look at Ryan and Schaub's numbers. Completion percentage and yards/attempt are both very comparable to Warners, with much less reciever talent around them. If they QB'd us last year, they would have put up close to same numbers as Warner IMO.

There's no arguing that the Cardinals have some talent on offense but I think you're greatly diminishing what Warner brings to the equation. But, let's say for a moment that those guys could replicate what Warner did during the regular season. Would you care to argue that they would offer what Warner can do in the playoffs? I'm pretty sure he's got them beat by far in that category.

And I could argue that Fitzgerald and the defense had just as much if not more to do with our playoff run than Warner.

Look I like Warner and think he had a good year, but he doesn't deserve 14.5 mil next year. If I'm the Cards I put a 2yr -16 mil (incentives upto 4 mil a year based on playing time and postseason appearances) on the table. Give him a deadline and if he hasn't signed it by then I pull the offer and move on.

 

[moklerman]

How does it not affect the teams ability to sign targeted FAs.

Well, as it stands the essentially don't have any targeted FA's and they have repeated the mantra that they aren't going to go after any high priced FA's.

You really think that Warner would put up 4000 yds and 30 TDs with Minn.?

Well, considering their less than stellar QB corps put up 2,956 combined, I think Warner would be good for 67+ yards more per game than any/all of those guys. 30 TD's would be a bit tougher but they did manage 22 and I think Warner would improve on that number. Maybe not 30 but high 20's.
No I agree that Warner is better and more experienced, but look at Ryan and

Schaub's numbers. Completion percentage and yards/attempt are both very comparable to Warners, with much less reciever talent around them. If they QB'd us last year, they would have put up close to same numbers as Warner IMO

Schaub can't stay healthy so I really question, even though I like his ability, whether he would stay any healthier here. I doubt it and thus his numbers wouldn't compare. Looking at Ryan's numbers is a bit misleading as well. I agree that his receiving corps wasn't as good as Warner's but his running game was much, much better and the team didn't rely on his passsing for the most part. If you increase his attempts(or Schaub's) up to the 600 range where Warner's are, the numbers are going to reflect that. The completion % and ypa that compare as it stands would most likely drop.

EDIT:

Also by your logic , Rivers and Brees should be demanding to restructure their deals to pay them 15 to 18 mil per year for the remainder of their contract.

That doesn't fit what I'm saying at all. If Warner was demanding to re-do his contract this would be whole other ball of wax. Conversely, if Brees was an UFA this year then I would expect him to want to be one of the top paid QB's.

Look I like Warner and think he had a good year, but he doesn't deserve 14.5 mil next year. If I'm the Cards I put a 2yr -16 mil

I'm not saying 14.5 either but $10M/2 plus incentives with a nice guarenteed portion is more fitting I think.

 

[HookemCards]

Well, as it stands the essentially don't have any targeted FA's and they have repeated the mantra that they aren't going to go after any high priced FA's.

We have targeted FAs. Mcfadden is coming in, we need OL depth, a couple of LB, at least 2 RBs, and I'm sure Wiz wants a blocking TE. We'll get some of those from the draft, but we'll have to also use FA to get them, just because we haven't brought in the big name guys that signed the first weekend doesn't mean we don't have any targeted.

Well, considering their less than stellar QB corps put up 2,956 combined, I think Warner would be good for 67+ yards more per game than any/all of those guys. 30 TD's would be a bit tougher but they did manage 22 and I think Warner would improve on that number. Maybe not 30 but high 20's.

Wow, I didn't realize they did that well, didn't even bother to check. In my eyes that kind of diminishes what Warner did here last year. If those 2 guys can throw for 3000 yards and 22 TDs, with Berrian and a bunch of stiffs, I wonder how they'd do with Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston. Now I don't even want to give Warner 2 yr - 20 mil.

I doubt it and thus his numbers wouldn't compare. Looking at Ryan's numbers is a bit misleading as well. I agree that his receiving corps wasn't as good as Warner's but his running game was much, much better and the team didn't rely on his passsing for the most part. If you increase his attempts(or Schaub's) up to the 600 range where Warner's are, the numbers are going to reflect that. The completion % and ypa that compare as it stands would most likely drop.

How can you possibly know that. Its not like we don't have a decent sampling. 380 attempts for Schaub and 430 attempts for Ryan. Is it possible that Turner was able to do so well because teams were just blitzing the hell out of the rookie? As for Schaub's health, you do know that Warner has only played 16 games 3 times in his entire career. I realize not all those years were due to injury, but alot were. I'm sure there is no chance of injury now that he is 38 though, right??[/QUOTE]

 

[Cards232]

You've got to take his age into consideration. It catches every player and Warner is no exception. Will it catch him next year? We don't know, but you have to factor it in. The older he get's the more likely it is. To just ignore it is foolish and doesn't take into account the best interests of the Cardinals.

Very good point. But, players don't normally just fall off a cliff in performance when age becomes an issue. It's a gradual decrease in performance & ability. I see no signs of regression w/ Warner at all, in fact, he seemingly is getting better. An anomaly for sure, but Warner's whole career is an anomaly.

Has Warner lost significant arm strength, accuracy, reading ability, leadership qualities, increase in injuries, inability to recover from hits, and maybe most importantly, has Warner lost the confidence of his teammates and/or coaches? If the answers are no, then we keep riding this horse until it breaks down. Remember, we're talking about a 2 year contract here, not 10 years. If Warner can take us to the SB again, does it really matter how old he is?

Most never thought Warner could take us to the SB this year at age 37! All of the same arguments about his age were being made this last year. In fact, that argument has been made since he left St. Louis. Until I see evidence to the contrary, the whole age ruse is a moot point.

 

[Stout]

Very good point. But, players don't normally just fall off a cliff in performance when age becomes an issue. It's a gradual decrease in performance & ability. I see no signs of regression w/ Warner at all, in fact, he seemingly is getting better. An anomaly for sure, but Warner's whole career is an anomaly.

Has Warner lost significant arm strength, accuracy, reading ability, leadership qualities, increase in injuries, inability to recover from hits, and maybe most importantly, has Warner lost the confidence of his teammates and/or coaches? If the answers are no, then we keep riding this horse until it breaks down. Remember, we're talking about a 2 year contract here, not 10 years. If Warner can take us to the SB again, does it really matter how old he is?

Most never thought Warner could take us to the SB this year at age 37! All of the same arguments about his age were being made this last year. In fact, that argument has been made since he left St. Louis. Until I see evidence to the contrary, the whole age ruse is a moot point.

Tell that to the Gannons and Cunninghams of the NFL.

 

[moklerman]

Tell that to the Gannons and Cunninghams of the NFL.

Don't mention it to Montana, Moon, Elway...

 

[earthsci]

Don't mention it to Montana, Moon, Elway...

Montana & Elway retired at 38.