Antrel Rolle - Decision time in T-Minus 12 days

[Buckybird]

Whoa! I don't share this delusion of adequacy.

You might be right CC, but...

I've seen these same scenarios play out before & we all as fans (& players) didn't like the results then.

 

[Buckybird]

C'mon Dj, were not talking George Boone here. Sorry, but I disagree with your statement about the hard core fan being better. It that was the case, they would be working for a football team someplace instead of spouting off on a message board. Anyone who thinks Rod Graves didn't have a hand in building this team isn't being honest with themselves.

I'll give you that Graves had a hand in it 40, but Graves (or ownership) is having a hand in tearing it down also. Again you don't lose players the kaliber of Dansby, Rolle, Quan & Warner & just throw out player X in their positions & pick up where we left off. One is already gone & all 3 others are likely to join him.

I could be wrong but haven't we seen this before in 1977 & 1999? Good teams that were gutted of their coaches & talented leaders. The things that are happening right now could have an effect on who wants to stay & who wants to leave in players & coaches in the future. Beleive me I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling of what transpires over the next few seasons...

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Me either. But I do believe that many hard core, long time fans could do just as good a job. Just look at the people we've had as President of the United States.

Pros vs Joes...

I have a background in professional sport, as a lawyer have negotiated many a contract, and manage a sizable firm... and would nevertheless find managing 130M + in contracts quite daunting.

As for President of the U.S., well, he puts his CV out there, and let's the people decide. Can't blame him if you collectively have made a bad hire.

 

[40yearfan]

I'll give you that Graves had a hand in it 40, but Graves (or ownership) is having a hand in tearing it down also. Again you don't lose players the kaliber of Dansby, Rolle, Quan & Warner & just throw out player X in their positions & pick up where we left off. One is already gone & all 3 others are likely to join him.

I could be wrong but haven't we seen this before in 1977 & 1999? Good teams that were gutted of their coaches & talented leaders. The things that are happening right now could have an effect on who wants to stay & who wants to leave in players & coaches in the future. Beleive me I hope I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling of what transpires over the next few seasons...

Ya just gotta have faith Bucky. This ain't your fathers' Cardinals and as long as MB is pulling the strings, we won't go back to those days. We are following a pattern that Whis learned from his time in Pittsburg. Look at how many good players they have released and yet remain one of the top teams. Settle down and have a cold one. The ride is just starting.

 

[40yearfan]

Pros vs Joes...

I have a background in professional sport, as a lawyer have negotiated many a contract, and manage a sizable firm... and would nevertheless find managing 130M + in contracts quite daunting.

As for President of the U.S., well, he puts his CV out there, and let's the people decide. Can't blame him if you collectively have made a bad hire.

Wow, even the Canadians realize it.

 

[Buckybird]

Ya just gotta have faith Bucky. This ain't your fathers' Cardinals and as long as MB is pulling the strings, we won't go back to those days. We are following a pattern that Whis learned from his time in Pittsburg. Look at how many good players they have released and yet remain one of the top teams. Settle down and have a cold one. The ride is just starting.

I may have to drink a bottle of Patron everyday until after the draft.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Wow, even the Canadians realize it.

GWB was supposed to be just an average guy like you and me. It was the people who hired him so they can't really complain.

Graves was hired by Bidwill. So the People (Fans) have the right to complain if they don't agree with his hiring. I personally think Graves has done a pretty good job since he took over as Vice President of Football Operations of the team.

 

[Buckybird]

Graves was hired by Bidwill. So the People (Fans) have the right to complain if they don't agree with his hiring.

And I would turn cartwheels with his firing!!!

 

[Duckjake]

C'mon Dj, were not talking George Boone here. Sorry, but I disagree with your statement about the hard core fan being better. It that was the case, they would be working for a football team someplace instead of spouting off on a message board. Anyone who thinks Rod Graves didn't have a hand in building this team isn't being honest with themselves.

That's nonsense. Not everybody who could be qualified decides to pursue a career in the NFL or even has the opportunity even if they did. And here's one reason why: son of the late Jackie Graves, the former assistant director of player personnel for the Philadelphia Eagles

In addition by the time a hard core fan develops the knowledge to be a decent GM they are already 10,15,20 years into another career.

And here is some additional information for you 40. Graves first football job was with the PHILADELPHIA Stars. I wonder how he got that job? That's where he first met Vince Tobin who was the Stars defensive coordinator. And who did he work for in Chicago? Bill Tobin, Vince's brother. And when did Graves come to Arizona? 1997. Guess who was HC in the desert at that time. You guessed it. Vince Tobin. In football it's not what you know but who you know.

 

[conraddobler]

Graves IMO has gotten better but is on the whole IMO way overrated by the media.

He's not terrible and to his credit he seems to accept input from the coaches and scouts well, still he makes me very nervous in terms of his overall vision for the team.

DG improved his drafting skills a ton IMO, but this year I bet he slides out of BPA in a big way to get defense and you could argue that's needed but I also bet he'll claim we still went BPA which IMO is dubious.

I don't bag on him for his problems with Drew R's clients, I'd have problems with that guy too but on the whole again, IMO he's benefited from his surroundings and those who've come before him more than he's driven the process, JMO.

 

[Catfish]

OK Catfish bashers, get ready to rumble. I think things have change totally with the hiring of Donnie Henderson. If there is one coach in the league that I would want to try to develop this defensive secondary, it would be Henderson. I think that Graves has made the perfect signing here. NOW--------

I seriously doubt that we can negotiate with Rolle before we are forced to release him. Not only is he represented by Drew, (NO-DEAL), Rosenhaus, but Rolle comes from the 'U', the hotbed of producing 'ME' players. Secondly, because Rolle's contract was predicated on being a CornerBack, it is significantly higher than it would have been as a Safety. No way should we pay 12 mil to him this year. No way anybody does.

We may be able to compete for his services with other teams, (including Miami), where Rolle obviously wants to go however, after he is cut and placed on the wire.
If, for instance, Donnie Henderson has seen enough of Rolle on tape, or has talked with him enough to get a feel for him, he says that he can make Rolle into the Safety we need, (instead of the safety Rolle wants to be), then I believe we can throw some real money after him to compete with Miami or whoever else is vying for his time.

Remember, nobody is going to pay a so-so safety 12 mil a year, uncapped season or not. If the fair market value for Rolle turns out to be 3 or 4 mil on the market, (and provided Henderson truly believes he can work with Rolle), we might due well to offer a mil or so ABOVE what the others are offering, or are willing to pay. If Rolle agrees to this, we get a shot to make him into a real safety, for 4-6 mil rather than giving him 12 mil. If Rolle, (Rosenhaus), balks at that, then we have lost nothing, as he didn't want to be here anyway, and wouldn't likely have taken to coaching either.

Ready--------Pile on-------------- Now!!!!!!!!

 

[40yearfan]

That's nonsense. Not everybody who could be qualified decides to pursue a career in the NFL or even has the opportunity even if they did. And here's one reason why: son of the late Jackie Graves, the former assistant director of player personnel for the Philadelphia Eagles

In addition by the time a hard core fan develops the knowledge to be a decent GM they are already 10,15,20 years into another career.

And here is some additional information for you 40. Graves first football job was with the PHILADELPHIA Stars. I wonder how he got that job? That's where he first met Vince Tobin who was the Stars defensive coordinator. And who did he work for in Chicago? Bill Tobin, Vince's brother. And when did Graves come to Arizona? 1997. Guess who was HC in the desert at that time. You guessed it. Vince Tobin. In football it's not what you know but who you know.

The proof is in the pudding. You can complain all you want but the basic fact is that the Cardinals have improved immensely under RG's watch. To insinuate that a fan could do a better job is really reaching. I'd love for someone to ask this question of Whis.

 

[40yearfan]

GWB was supposed to be just an average guy like you and me. It was the people who hired him so they can't really complain.

Graves was hired by Bidwill. So the People (Fans) have the right to complain if they don't agree with his hiring. I personally think Graves has done a pretty good job since he took over as Vice President of Football Operations of the team.

MCD, he wasn't talking about GW.

 

[Duckjake]

The proof is in the pudding. You can complain all you want but the basic fact is that the Cardinals have improved immensely under RG's watch. To insinuate that a fan could do a better job is really reaching. I'd love for someone to ask this question of Whis.

No it's not reaching because all Graves was was a guy with an economics degree from Texas Tech University. No football background whatsoever other than that his father was in the business. Other than knowing the Tobin's what made Rod qualified to be a pro scout?

 

[Buckybird]

No it's not reaching because all Graves was was a guy with an economics degree from Texas Tech University. No football background whatsoever other than that his father was in the business. Other than knowing the Tobin's what made Rod qualified to be a pro scout?

Duck you just keep proving our point

RG has a great gift of gab!!! Great talker, nice guy, average GM!!! But everyone has their opinions.

 

[bg7brd]

OK Catfish bashers, get ready to rumble. I think things have change totally with the hiring of Donnie Henderson. If there is one coach in the league that I would want to try to develop this defensive secondary, it would be Henderson. I think that Graves has made the perfect signing here. NOW--------

I seriously doubt that we can negotiate with Rolle before we are forced to release him. Not only is he represented by Drew, (NO-DEAL), Rosenhaus, but Rolle comes from the 'U', the hotbed of producing 'ME' players. Secondly, because Rolle's contract was predicated on being a CornerBack, it is significantly higher than it would have been as a Safety. No way should we pay 12 mil to him this year. No way anybody does.

We may be able to compete for his services with other teams, (including Miami), where Rolle obviously wants to go however, after he is cut and placed on the wire.
If, for instance, Donnie Henderson has seen enough of Rolle on tape, or has talked with him enough to get a feel for him, he says that he can make Rolle into the Safety we need, (instead of the safety Rolle wants to be), then I believe we can throw some real money after him to compete with Miami or whoever else is vying for his time.

Remember, nobody is going to pay a so-so safety 12 mil a year, uncapped season or not. If the fair market value for Rolle turns out to be 3 or 4 mil on the market, (and provided Henderson truly believes he can work with Rolle), we might due well to offer a mil or so ABOVE what the others are offering, or are willing to pay. If Rolle agrees to this, we get a shot to make him into a real safety, for 4-6 mil rather than giving him 12 mil. If Rolle, (Rosenhaus), balks at that, then we have lost nothing, as he didn't want to be here anyway, and wouldn't likely have taken to coaching either.

Ready--------Pile on-------------- Now!!!!!!!!

I agree Catfish. I also see the same scenario playing out with Dasby too.

 

[Duckjake]

I agree Catfish. I also see the same scenario playing out with Dasby too.

I remember when people said nobody would pay Leonard Davis $24 million. Or Antonio Smith $15.5 million or Calvin Pace $22 million.

 

[earthsci]

No it's not reaching because all Graves was was a guy with an economics degree from Texas Tech University. No football background whatsoever other than that his father was in the business. Other than knowing the Tobin's what made Rod qualified to be a pro scout?

It is reaching DJ. Sure, he probably got his first job (Regional scout is pretty entry level) due to his connections. So what? After that he worked his way up to to assistant director of player personnel for the Stars so he was doing something right. So he built good experience and, yeah maybe because of who he knows, he got a job with the Bears as a regional scout, was then promoted to director of college scouting in 1993, then director of player personnel in 1994. That isn't all just because who he knows. Plus he has the experience that he has built here. So here's my point, it is a reach to say that some guy sitting on his ass in Texas posting on a message board could come in and do as good of a job as a man with 18 years of experience in pro football management and just built a team that went to the Super Bowl.

 

[Shane]

Duck your my bud. But you are talking through both sides of you mouth on this subject. You couldn't be more off base IMO.

 

[Chopper0080]

My point has always been that if we don't want Rolle, then we should have cut him at the start of the offseason. End of story. If he doesn't want to renegotiate his potentially 12 million contract now, since we didn't care enough to renegotiate it last season, then cut him. Don't look like even bigger idiots by half-assing negotiations now. Make a decision and move on.

I just fail to see how the Cardinals could let this deal get to this point if they actually wanted to keep Rolle around. And, if Graves did, then he is even more inept than I thought.

 

[Duckjake]

It is reaching DJ. Sure, he probably got his first job (Regional scout is pretty entry level) due to his connections. So what? After that he worked his way up to to assistant director of player personnel for the Stars so he was doing something right. So he built good experience and, yeah maybe because of who he knows, he got a job with the Bears as a regional scout, was then promoted to director of college scouting in 1993, then director of player personnel in 1994. That isn't all just because who he knows. Plus he has the experience that he has built here. So here's my point, it is a reach to say that some guy sitting on his ass in Texas posting on a message board could come in and do as good of a job as a man with 18 years of experience in pro football management and just built a team that went to the Super Bowl.

Sorry but you make my argument for me. First of all most hard core fans aren't just sitting on their asses posting on a message board. (To infer that you insult everyone posting here.)

Most hard core fans have seen hundreds of NFL football games and now have access to slow motion replays in HD as well as playbook analysis on the NFL network, have read millions of words about the game, and peruse numerous websites with all sorts of degrees of statistics and scouting reports. You can find out all sorts of things about players from all over America, both in the NFL and in college from INFORMED posters here on ASFN every day.

Us poor ol' boys postin' here on AsFn ain't as dum as u think.

PS. Graves went from administrating the scouting dept. to being in charge of negotiating contracts. Where'd he get that experience? Sitting on his ass in a film room? Figuring out where to send Bob Mazie on Saturday?

Dave McGinnis had a ton of football experience. I'll bet I could take just about anybody here on ASFN and have them coach the Cards to dead last in points scored and points allowed.

 

[Duckjake]

Duck your my bud. But you are talking through both sides of you mouth on this subject. You couldn't be more off base IMO.

We'll just have to disagree on this one. I never have and never will buy into the NFL guys are geniuses idea. The front office work is no different imo than management in any other business.

It's not so easy a cave man could do it but it isn't the rocket science so many want to make it.

 

[earthsci]

Sorry but you make my argument for me. First of all most hard core fans aren't just sitting on their asses posting on a message board. (To infer that you insult everyone posting here.)

Us poor ol' boys postin' here on AsFn ain't as dum as u think.

I didn't mean to insult, I apologize to everyone, and you are right that I meant everyone. Including myself.

Most hard core fans have seen hundreds of NFL football games and now have access to slow motion replays in HD as well as playbook analysis on the NFL network, have read millions of words about the game, and peruse numerous websites with all sorts of degrees of statistics and scouting reports. You can find out all sorts of things about players from all over America, both in the NFL and in college from INFORMED posters here on ASFN every day.

There are some people on this board who I wouldn't be at all surprised if they become or have been employed by an NFL team, Jim O noted. I still think that it's a reach to think that any of us would do better than he is.

Dave McGinnis had a ton of football experience. I'll bet I could take just about anybody here on ASFN and have them coach the Cards to dead last in points scored and points allowed.

He wasn't a good head coach. He's still employed in the NFL though. It would have been funny to see cheesebeef pacing the sidelines hugging a clipboard.

 

[AzWins23]

Welcome to your 1999 Arizona Cardinals!!! HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!

 

[Duckjake]

I didn't mean to insult, I apologize to everyone, and you are right that I meant everyone. Including myself.
There are some people on this board who I wouldn't be at all surprised if they become or have been employed by an NFL team, Jim O noted. I still think that it's a reach to think that any of us would do better than he is.

He wasn't a good head coach. He's still employed in the NFL though. It would have been funny to see cheesebeef pacing the sidelines hugging a clipboard.

That would have been funny. But Cheese would have finished 10-6.