Kyler Murray entering Draft

[Crimson Warrior]

Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart were in the exact same college environment and Matt was a more productive QB in college. Carson Palmer went on to have a very productive NFL career; a notch or two below HoF status. Meanwhile, Matt Leinart is considered one of the biggest QB busts in NFL history. By your logic, Matt Leinart should've been better than Palmer. We all know that was not the case.

Okay, that's not bad TJ. "biggest QB bust in NFL history" is probably a little much, but whatever, since that's not really what we're discussing.

I guess my only rebuttal would be that maybe (maybe!) Hollywood Matt Leinart did not work hard enough to get the most out of his talent. That he could have been as good as Palmer had he put in the effort. But I have no factual basis for that, and you've made a good point.

My little three point argument could be affected by too many variables over time to really be sturdy, but honestly, the only thing I'm attempting to assert to the Murray-haters is that his height did not affect his collegiate performance relative to Mayfield's, and so why would it affect his professional performance relative to Mayfield's?

 

[TJ]

Okay, than's not bad TJ. "biggest QB bust in NFL history" is probably a little much, but whatever, since that's not really what we're discussing.

I guess my only rebuttal would be that maybe (maybe!) Hollywood Matt Leinart did not work hard enough to get the most out of his talent. That he could have been as good as Palmer had he put in the effort. But I have no factual basis for that, and you've made a good point.

My little three point argument could be affected by too many variables over time to really be sturdy, but honestly, the only thing I'm attempting to assert to the Murray-haters is that his height did not affect his collegiate performance relative to Mayfield's, and so why would it affect his professional performance relative to Mayfield's?

I don’t doubt that Murray could be a successful QB in the pros, height included. Rather, our issues are above and beyond quarterback, and with the #1 pick and not needing a QB, we’re in a prime position to fill holes quickly with either an elite prospect like Bosa, or trading back and collecting more picks.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

IMHO Murray should give half his bonus to the guys who played WR at Oklahoma.Watched many highlights from Murray and quite often the WRS saved his ass by coming back for the ball or doing what was needed to make the catch.Saw too many throws underthrown or poor placement saved by the WRS.Every report I read says Murray definitely needs to work on his progressions/'reads,inconsistent release and tucking and running too often.The kid has some good tools but you can be schemed against if your QB has to roll out constantly to open a throw lane and/or takes off running at the drop off a hat.Kid has too many flaws that to be corrected for a number 1 pick IMHO.

Ridiculous. Anybody who watched an OU game this past year will know that you're just trolling now BW52.

The above 2018 performance you describe allowed Murray to rip the Heisman out of tua tagovailoa's ESPN-supported death-grip? No.

It's like POISON's posts last year for Mayfield. It really sounds like you have a personal dislike for the kid.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I don’t doubt that Murray could be a successful QB in the pros, height included. Rather, our issues are above and beyond quarterback, and with the #1 pick and not needing a QB, we’re in a prime position to fill holes quickly with either an elite prospect like Bosa, or trading back and collecting more picks.

Was it Levi Brown we drafted instead of Adrian Peterson? Please no! Don't throw anything at me!

Thanks man, you're reasonable at least. Appreciate it.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Those may be all valid points, but I don’t think there has EVER been a more talented 5’10” QB than Murray. He’s extremely accurate, extremely fast, extremely elusive, and has a very strong arm. On top of that, his current coach at OU, and K2 both gush about his ability to read defenses. Ok, he’s short. Is that the trump card in not taking him. I think Rosen is an overall bright guy, who can be a moron at times on the football field.

The Trump card in not taking him is MLB. I've stated before, Murray is 1 legit NFL hit, sack, concussion, etc away from going to baseball. You will never get him to sign a NFL contract that eliminates that choice... he's a more legit MLB prospect than Wilson and he can hold that over a team's head for years.

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[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Terrible. And it's terrible that you're trolling me. Disappointing.

However, I'll play along just this one time only to defend College Football's highest honor.

Your argument is stupid because it infers that non-heisman-winning QBs leaving college and entering the NFL generally enjoy at least as much success as heisman-winning QBs, when in fact the failure rate for non-heisman winning QBs is higher.

Compare the success rate (in terms of average years in the NFL, or any other reasonable metric) for heisman-trophy-winning QBs to the success rate for all QBs entering the draft, declaring for the draft, or trying to make teams as an UDFA, and then tell me "heisman trophy QB winners suck".

The opposite is true. Winning the heisman practically guarantees a more successful NFL career than that experienced by the majority of QBs in that same QB class that don't win the heisman. There are some exceptions, sure, like poor Jason White, but you'll find my premise is generally sound. Your post leverages the fact that its hard to play QB in the NFL, but we already know that ouchie.

Also, I think I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond to my posts sir.

I treated you with the same respect you treated the previous poster and now you get butthurt? Glass houses man.

And I just pointed out the folly of your argument. You chose maybe one of the worst indicators of NFL success. And then you’re backing it up with unsubstantiated generalizations. Meh.

And y’know what? If want a conversation to end with me, here’s a tip - don’t respond to me. But I can’t promise I’ll never reply to one of your posts because if it warrants my reply I’m going to do it. If your skin is too thin perhaps you should (a) place me on ignore; or (b) not post anymore.

Btw if you think this is in any way shape or form personal, it’s not. I typically read threads without viewing the posters names to make the text large enough to read comfortably on my phone. If you think I disagree with you a disproportionate amount of the time it’s purely based on what you’ve written and not who you are. I don’t troll individuals.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So a skills competition in shorts will give you all the answers you need ?

Hmm, not for me. But the alternatives seem to be:

1. Base it on his actual play - which seems to dictate he’s the best player available potentially; or

2. Base it on his physical measurements and a perhaps antiquated rule that NFL QBs must be a certain height - this seems as silly as basing a decision on a skills competition, no?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If there was a Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck in this draft then moving on from Rosen would be a real option. Murray is not Luck or Manning, he is NOT a can't miss prospect. He does not have the requisite NFL size, he has exactly 1 year as a starter in college football and he also can cut bait at any time and go baseball if the going gets tough.

Rosen may not work out but I am more confident in him becoming a solid pro than I am in Murray becoming one.

Based solely on height?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Based solely on height?

You can also make a case against Murray for how well he DIDN'T play at TAMU....

 

[Zeno]

Based solely on height?

Some physical limitations you can't overcome and the guy isn't going to get any taller. The NFL hasn't seen a successful QB his height ever.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Trump card in not taking him is MLB. I've stated before, Murray is 1 legit NFL hit, sack, concussion, etc away from going to baseball. You will never get him to sign a NFL contract that eliminates that choice... he's a more legit MLB prospect than Wilson and he can hold that over a team's head for years.

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This is actually my greatest fear.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can also make a case against Murray for how well he DIDN'T play at TAMU....

That’s a better argument than size imo. And don’t get me wrong, the size causes me pause but the prospect of missing out on a dude who could create fear in the opposition to his degree scares me. I guess you could say I have Murray-FOMO.

 

[JeffGollin]

Some physical limitations you can't overcome and the guy isn't going to get any taller. The NFL hasn't seen a successful QB his height ever.

True, but it's also possible that a tangible defect (like lack of height) can be overcome with some other attribute - for example: I saw a scouting report that pointed out that Murray got rid of the ball "sick-quick" and that, possibly for that reason, his percentage of batted passes was lower than average.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Not really. I was more pointing out his midget comment on every post about Murray. Short by NFL standards but certainly not a midget.

No, actually a midget by NFL standards

 

[Krangodnzr]

That’s a better argument than size imo. And don’t get me wrong, the size causes me pause but the prospect of missing out on a dude who could create fear in the opposition to his degree scares me. I guess you could say I have Murray-FOMO.

I think there are easy arguments against Murray.

1) The Cardinals already have a QBOF on the roster that they draft last year
2) Murray IS unprecedently small for a successful NFL QB. 5'9 is quite a bit smaller than 6'0 which is considered really short for an NFL QB. Murray is a micro NFL QB
3) He is going to have to rely on athleticism in the NFL, and QBs who do that tend to not have the same success once they stop running all of the time
4) He was only good for ONE season in college football. He wasn't good earlier in his career.
5) He has baseball to fall back on. Until recently, he specifically stated he wanted to play baseball.
6) If you draft Murray, there will be a learning curve. The team already started the learning curve with Rosen. That means the team has to start over even before Rosen has a chance.
7) Rosen would be the 1st QB off the board this year. He was a significantly better prospect last year than any of the QBs this year.


I could go on, and on, and on. There are MANY reasons that drafting Murray would be a bad idea.

 

[BW52]

Ridiculous. Anybody who watched an OU game this past year will know that you're just trolling now BW52.

The above 2018 performance you describe allowed Murray to rip the Heisman out of tua tagovailoa's ESPN-supported death-grip? No.

It's like POISON's posts last year for Mayfield. It really sounds like you have a personal dislike for the kid.

Ridiculous. Anybody who watched an OU game this past year will know that you're just trolling now BW52.

The above 2018 performance you describe allowed Murray to rip the Heisman out of tua tagovailoa's ESPN-supported death-grip? No.

It's like POISON's posts last year for Mayfield. It really sounds like you have a personal dislike for the kid.

Bullcrap.I saw what I saw.I saw QB with skills who got saved quite often by his WRS.Your pimping for Murray is bordering on personal worship.Murray isn`t worthy of the top pick no matter how your rose-colored views may be.I do n`t have a personal dislike for the kid... ijust think he is not what the Cards need. for several reason and I have stated why I have doubts about his success in the NFL,If that what you call a personal dislike then that's your problem.Now you can put your little cheerleader uniform on and start your "Murray,Murray" chants.

 

[Card Down Under]

Some physical limitations you can't overcome and the guy isn't going to get any taller. The NFL hasn't seen a successful QB his height ever.

Tell Fran Tarkenton that!

 

[BW52]

Tell Fran Tarkenton that!

Fran Tarkenton is 6`0 tall.Not 5`9 or 5`10 at best.

 

[slanidrac16]

I think there are easy arguments against Murray.

1) The Cardinals already have a QBOF on the roster that they draft last year
2) Murray IS unprecedently small for a successful NFL QB. 5'9 is quite a bit smaller than 6'0 which is considered really short for an NFL QB. Murray is a micro NFL QB
3) He is going to have to rely on athleticism in the NFL, and QBs who do that tend to not have the same success once they stop running all of the time
4) He was only good for ONE season in college football. He wasn't good earlier in his career.
5) He has baseball to fall back on. Until recently, he specifically stated he wanted to play baseball.
6) If you draft Murray, there will be a learning curve. The team already started the learning curve with Rosen. That means the team has to start over even before Rosen has a chance.
7) Rosen would be the 1st QB off the board this year. He was a significantly better prospect last year than any of the QBs this year.


I could go on, and on, and on. There are MANY reasons that drafting Murray would be a bad idea.

A few things would have to happen for us to draft Murray. 1. He will have to blow the roof off at the combine and skyrocket in the player rankings. 2. The cards would need a buyer for Rosen and would have to be willing to “pay the price” to get him. If a team offered up their first round , a third round this year and a second round in 2020 would/should the cards be interested? Not saying anyone would offer that but there is no way in hell the cards would draft Murray with Rosen still on the roster.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Bullcrap.I saw what I saw.I saw QB with skills who got saved quite often by his WRS.Your pimping for Murray is bordering on personal worship.Murray isn`t worthy of the top pick no matter how your rose-colored views may be.I do n`t have a personal dislike for the kid... ijust think he is not what the Cards need. for several reason and I have stated why I have doubts about his success in the NFL,If that what you call a personal dislike then that's your problem.Now you can put your little cheerleader uniform on and start your "Murray,Murray" chants.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[JeffGollin]

I think there are easy arguments against Murray.

1) The Cardinals already have a QBOF on the roster that they draft last year
2) Murray IS unprecedently small for a successful NFL QB. 5'9 is quite a bit smaller than 6'0 which is considered really short for an NFL QB. Murray is a micro NFL QB
3) He is going to have to rely on athleticism in the NFL, and QBs who do that tend to not have the same success once they stop running all of the time
4) He was only good for ONE season in college football. He wasn't good earlier in his career.
5) He has baseball to fall back on. Until recently, he specifically stated he wanted to play baseball.
6) If you draft Murray, there will be a learning curve. The team already started the learning curve with Rosen. That means the team has to start over even before Rosen has a chance.
7) Rosen would be the 1st QB off the board this year. He was a significantly better prospect last year than any of the QBs this year.


I could go on, and on, and on. There are MANY reasons that drafting Murray would be a bad idea.

Only one set of arguments counts:

- Can Murray take us to the Super Bowl?

- Can Rosen take us to the Super Bowl?

- Which of the two gives us the best chance to reach the Super Bowl?

You set aside distractions such as salary cap, whether one was drafted before the other*, which coach's daughter they each dated and bits of obscure PFF data. You then compare the two as complete football players and roll the dice.

* If Murray takes us to the Super Bowl, people will forget quickly that we drafted Rosen earlier as QBOF. If Rosen takes us to the Super Bowl, no one will remember that we passed on Murray.

 

[Ronin]

Only one set of arguments counts:

- Can Murray take us to the Super Bowl?

- Can Rosen take us to the Super Bowl?

- Which of the two gives us the best chance to reach the Super Bowl?

You set aside distractions such as salary cap, whose coach's daughter they each dated and bits of obscure PFF data, compare the two as complete football players and roll the dice.

My vote goes to the guy that had a hot tub in his dorm room.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I think there are easy arguments against Murray.

1) The Cardinals already have a QBOF on the roster that they draft last year
2) Murray IS unprecedently small for a successful NFL QB. 5'9 is quite a bit smaller than 6'0 which is considered really short for an NFL QB. Murray is a micro NFL QB
3) He is going to have to rely on athleticism in the NFL, and QBs who do that tend to not have the same success once they stop running all of the time
4) He was only good for ONE season in college football. He wasn't good earlier in his career.
5) He has baseball to fall back on. Until recently, he specifically stated he wanted to play baseball.
6) If you draft Murray, there will be a learning curve. The team already started the learning curve with Rosen. That means the team has to start over even before Rosen has a chance.
7) Rosen would be the 1st QB off the board this year. He was a significantly better prospect last year than any of the QBs this year.


I could go on, and on, and on. There are MANY reasons that drafting Murray would be a bad idea.

Why will he have rely on his athleticism Krang?

 

[cardncubfan]

We don't need to draft another QB regardless of height or how special the next guy is. We need to ride with the guy we drafted last year.

''Adds a personnel executive for an AFC team who has scouted Rosen extensively: "He's really a special passer. He makes all the throws from the pocket. He makes you go 'wow' at least two to three times a game. He has pinpoint accuracy and can adapt to any system you want. And he'll stand in there and throw it and take a shot right under the chin if he has to -- that's hard to find. Of all these quarterbacks coming out, he's the most ready. You don't really have to do anything except teach him the system."

http://www.nfl.com/labs/cfb247/josh-rosen/josh-rosen.html

 

[Dr. Jones]

We don't need to draft another QB regardless of height or how special the next guy is. We need to ride with the guy we drafted last year.

''Adds a personnel executive for an AFC team who has scouted Rosen extensively: "He's really a special passer. He makes all the throws from the pocket. He makes you go 'wow' at least two to three times a game. He has pinpoint accuracy and can adapt to any system you want. And he'll stand in there and throw it and take a shot right under the chin if he has to -- that's hard to find. Of all these quarterbacks coming out, he's the most ready. You don't really have to do anything except teach him the system."

http://www.nfl.com/labs/cfb247/josh-rosen/josh-rosen.html

If Rosen has pinpoint accuracy what does that say for KM who was almost 10% better than him last year?

But this is all conjecture. I just don't think Rosen wins us games. Kyler could actually win us games by himself.

I don't see JR or Goff or the qbs like them doing that in the same type of way.

Transcendent skills can't be taught baby!

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