Carson Palmer for MVP?

[kerouac9]

The entire offense? They do have the #2 TE in the league (#2 in yards and receptions).

Is Cam the #2 QB in the league? Cam is 29th in completion %, 18th in yards, tied for 6th in TDs, tied for 11th most INTs (10).

What if you factor in his rushing TDs and yardage?

 

[Austin Zonie]

What if you factor in his rushing TDs and yardage?

Good point. He's #1 in rushing yards for a QB (29th rusher overall). 2nd leading rushing QB is Wilson (26 yards behind). #1 in rushing TDs for QBs (tied for #4 overall).

I'm not sure how you factor that into the overall "value" of a quarterback. Would anyone take the 2015 version of Cam over the 2015 version of Brady, Palmer, Rodgers, or Roethlisberger?

 

[Azlen]

Shefter's so dumb. Check your facts, buddy: The Panthers are a perfect 11-1.

Since Dec 9th of last year, including the playoffs, the Panthers are 16-1.
They won the last 3 games of the season last year and went 1-1 in the playoffs and are 12-0 this year.

 

[kerouac9]

Good point. He's #1 in rushing yards for a QB (29th rusher overall). 2nd leading rushing QB is Wilson (26 yards behind). #1 in rushing TDs for QBs (tied for #4 overall).

I'm not sure how you factor that into the overall "value" of a quarterback. Would anyone take the 2015 version of Cam over the 2015 version of Brady, Palmer, Rodgers, or Roethlisberger?

Definitely on Roethlisberger (durability), but isn't "value" context-dependent? Let's not forget that Carolina's offensive line is G-A-R-B-A-G-E. Like hot garbage that froze overnight and then was reheated.

I have little doubt that Carolina with Palmer under center would look more like Palmer's Raiders than Palmer's Cardinals. There's an award for "best quarterback" — offensive player of the year. IMO, Cam elevates his team's potential more than any other quarterback elevates their team.

 

[kerouac9]

Since Dec 9th of last year, including the playoffs, the Panthers are 16-1.
They won the last 3 games of the season last year and went 1-1 in the playoffs and are 12-0 this year.

Check your facts. The 2015 Panthers are a perfect, one-loss team.

 

[Austin Zonie]

Definitely on Roethlisberger (durability), but isn't "value" context-dependent? Let's not forget that Carolina's offensive line is G-A-R-B-A-G-E. Like hot garbage that froze overnight and then was reheated.

I have little doubt that Carolina with Palmer under center would look more like Palmer's Raiders than Palmer's Cardinals. There's an award for "best quarterback" — offensive player of the year. IMO, Cam elevates his team's potential more than any other quarterback elevates their team.

I should have qualified Big Ben when healthy.

This ultimately does come down to an opinion. IMO, Carolina is undefeated largely due to the defense. Cam's numbers (other than his rushing stats) are very pedestrian. JJ Watt may elevate his team to a higher level of play than Cam. We know what the Cards look like without Palmer.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I'm so sick of hearing Cards fans saying Scam is the MVP.

Support your freaking QB peeps!!! Palmer has done something I'm pretty sure no other Big Red QB has ever done & that's win 23 out of his last 27 games!!! I'm quite sure that's probably the best over that span as well. IMO he's the MVP of the NFL.

He's also going to be the franchises leading TD passer season leader after tonight's game, over #13. Palmer is also probably going to break every single passing record in team history as well. He's in the top 2-3 of almost every passing category in the NFL & even the great Kurt Warner didn't do that in AZ. He's having a dynamic season & directing the leagues most potent offense. He's the MVP of the NFL.

Palmers on a mission & throwing dimes every game!!! He's soon going to lead us to a Super Bowl Title. For the reasons stated Carson Palmer is the MVP of the NFL.

I'd rather be open minded and correct than a straight homer like Wolf. You can be however you like.

 

[Buckybird]

I'd rather be open minded and correct than a straight homer like Wolf. You can be however you like.

People voted for & supported Obama too

 

[Cheesebeef]

I should have qualified Big Ben when healthy.

This ultimately does come down to an opinion. IMO, Carolina is undefeated largely due to the defense. Cam's numbers (other than his rushing stats) are very pedestrian. JJ Watt may elevate his team to a higher level of play than Cam.

but you can't just eliminate his rushing numbers... because you want to. Again, it's a MVP, most valuable player, not most valuable QB. The guy has so far produced 3300 total yards, the most TDs in the league, led the team to third highest scoring average in the league... with nothing but a good TE and a journeyman running back.

We know what the Cards look like without Palmer.

yeah... they were a .500 team last year without him with a pretty mediocre #2 QB. You put Stanton on that Carolina team and they would be bad. Like Houston bad the last couple years. Maybe they scratch out 6, 7 or at most 8 wins, but they wouldn't be close to the playoffs, much less running away with the 1 seed on pace to be undefeated. Their D isn't THAT good. I mean, you're making the Panthers D out to be the 85 Bears. They're very good, but they're nothing like the best defenses of all time, which seems like people are giving them credit to be I mean... do you guys recognize how rare it is for a team to go undefeated? That doesn't just happen with a very good D. And that very good hasn't even been healthy all season. Keuchly missed 3 games and Charles Johnson has missed 7... and they've been missing their number 1 WR all year.

 

[Darkside]

Definitely on Roethlisberger (durability), but isn't "value" context-dependent? Let's not forget that Carolina's offensive line is G-A-R-B-A-G-E. Like hot garbage that froze overnight and then was reheated.

I have little doubt that Carolina with Palmer under center would look more like Palmer's Raiders than Palmer's Cardinals. There's an award for "best quarterback" — offensive player of the year. IMO, Cam elevates his team's potential more than any other quarterback elevates their team.

Totally agree with this. Also factor in that Cam is much younger than all of them, his game is going to get better for longer than any of the others.

 

[Buckybird]

Another GW drive & darn good game that could've had more stats applied to his case. DJ nearly falls on a wide open TD pass & thus doesn't make the catch & Palmer slightly under throws JJ on a bomb for a TD.

He's still is the MVP to me

 

[GatorAZ]

Cam would need a pretty big meltdown at this point but their schedule is Cupcake City.

 

[Russ Smith]

Another GW drive & darn good game that could've had more stats applied to his case. DJ nearly falls on a wide open TD pass & thus doesn't make the catch & Palmer slightly under throws JJ on a bomb for a TD.

He's still is the MVP to me

We didn't get a great replay but I still say that was illegal contact on the DJ drop. Greenway hit him about 7 yards past the LOS, he stumbled and that's why he dropped that pass. Should have been first and goal again after that penalty we didn't get.

The Nelson pass I think Carson threw it too far inside and the safety got there. if it's outside and over the top, TD.

Basically he made 4 bad plays all night. Missed DJ on a wide open play. Missed Floyd wide open but I think Floyd slowed up. The picksix that Rhodes luckily dropped. And the INT on the last drive on the offsides play and again that was Floyd's fault, he stopped his pattern.

Floyd will certainly test your patience, 100 plus yards, a great catch and run for a TD, another great catch. But 2 plays where he slowed up or stopped his route and even the INT that they dropped if you noticed he and Palmer were talking about it which makes me think Palmer felt he ran a bad route that let the DB jump that. Next play was an out complete to him for a first down and Palmer made that "ive got my eyes on you" gesture as if see if you run the route right I'll put it on you, if you round it off he's going to see it coming.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Floyd will certainly test your patience, 100 plus yards, a great catch and run for a TD, another great catch. But 2 plays where he slowed up or stopped his route and even the INT that they dropped if you noticed he and Palmer were talking about it which makes me think Palmer felt he ran a bad route that let the DB jump that. Next play was an out complete to him for a first down and Palmer made that "ive got my eyes on you" gesture as if see if you run the route right I'll put it on you, if you round it off he's going to see it coming.

I don't think that at all. I think Floyd ran his natural route and Carson knew it was a free play and hoped that Floyd would change his route and go deep.

 

[Austin Zonie]

but you can't just eliminate his rushing numbers... because you want to. Again, it's a MVP, most valuable player, not most valuable QB. The guy has so far produced 3300 total yards, the most TDs in the league, led the team to third highest scoring average in the league... with nothing but a good TE and a journeyman running back.



yeah... they were a .500 team last year without him with a pretty mediocre #2 QB. You put Stanton on that Carolina team and they would be bad. Like Houston bad the last couple years. Maybe they scratch out 6, 7 or at most 8 wins, but they wouldn't be close to the playoffs, much less running away with the 1 seed on pace to be undefeated. Their D isn't THAT good. I mean, you're making the Panthers D out to be the 85 Bears. They're very good, but they're nothing like the best defenses of all time, which seems like people are giving them credit to be I mean... do you guys recognize how rare it is for a team to go undefeated? That doesn't just happen with a very good D. And that very good hasn't even been healthy all season. Keuchly missed 3 games and Charles Johnson has missed 7... and they've been missing their number 1 WR all year.

To be fair, the journeyman RB your referencing is #3 in the NFL for total rushing yards.

If you combine passing and rushing, he's just behind...Blake Bortles for #8 in the league.

Combined TDs puts him...2nd in the league behind Tom Brady (not the most in the league).


To sum it up, he's got the 2nd best TE and the 3rd highest rusher as his supporting cast. His WRs are atrocious. His rushing stats are the best for a QB in the league, but his passing stats are middle of the pack at best. IMO, that's not MVP material. The superb D, good to great TE, productive running game and Cam make this team undefeated. IMO, Cam doesn't stand out as the clear, head and shoulders #1 reason they are undefeated.

 

[Austin Zonie]

Definitely on Roethlisberger (durability), but isn't "value" context-dependent? Let's not forget that Carolina's offensive line is G-A-R-B-A-G-E. Like hot garbage that froze overnight and then was reheated.

I have little doubt that Carolina with Palmer under center would look more like Palmer's Raiders than Palmer's Cardinals. There's an award for "best quarterback" — offensive player of the year. IMO, Cam elevates his team's potential more than any other quarterback elevates their team.

Your opinion here, but do you really think the Brady-less Patriots drop off less than the Cam-less Panthers?

 

[kerouac9]

Your opinion here, but do you really think the Brady-less Patriots drop off less than the Cam-less Panthers?

For sure. I think that the Pats with a healthy Gronk are better than the Panthers, and I trust that Belicheck would get the most out of whomever is back there.

I don't have the same faith in Riverboat Ron and Mike Shula.

 

[Covert Rain]

Your opinion here, but do you really think the Brady-less Patriots drop off less than the Cam-less Panthers?

The amount is hard to quantify. All I know is that you take Cam, Ben, Carson or Tom out of the mix on any of those teams...we are not having the same conversations about any of their teams.

 

[Austin Zonie]

For sure. I think that the Pats with a healthy Gronk are better than the Panthers, and I trust that Belicheck would get the most out of whomever is back there.

I don't have the same faith in Riverboat Ron and Mike Shula.

I agree that Belicheck is a better coach than Rivera and NE would have that advantage, but the Panthers have had much better run support and about equal receiving threats - from a talent perspective. Brady gets more out of the passing game with about the same level of talent, IMO. Carolina has just under double the rushing yards as the Pats - 1703 (4th) vs 1062 (28th).

This is an interesting question: Who has the better receiving core today (TEs excluded - and Olsen is as close to Gronk as you're going to get, IMO), NE or Car? I suppose you give the nod to NE solely based on Amendola. Ginn and LaFell are probably a wash (both drop balls too frequently).

 

[kerouac9]

I agree that Belicheck is a better coach than Rivera and NE would have that advantage, but the Panthers have had much better run support and about equal receiving threats - from a talent perspective. Brady gets more out of the passing game with about the same level of talent, IMO. Carolina has just under double the rushing yards as the Pats - 1703 (4th) vs 1062 (28th).

This is an interesting question: Who has the better receiving core today (TEs excluded - and Olsen is as close to Gronk as you're going to get, IMO), NE or Car? I suppose you give the nod to NE solely based on Amendola. Ginn and LaFell are probably a wash (both drop balls too frequently).

I disagree that Carolina has an equivalent receiving corps — Amendola and Edelman would both start for Carolina walking in the door.

The rushing disparity is mostly about Tom Brady being a better passer and the majority of that difference is Cam Newton's rushing yardage.

 

[Buckybird]

We didn't get a great replay but I still say that was illegal contact on the DJ drop. Greenway hit him about 7 yards past the LOS, he stumbled and that's why he dropped that pass. Should have been first and goal again after that penalty we didn't get.

The Nelson pass I think Carson threw it too far inside and the safety got there. if it's outside and over the top, TD.

Basically he made 4 bad plays all night. Missed DJ on a wide open play. Missed Floyd wide open but I think Floyd slowed up. The picksix that Rhodes luckily dropped. And the INT on the last drive on the offsides play and again that was Floyd's fault, he stopped his pattern.

Floyd will certainly test your patience, 100 plus yards, a great catch and run for a TD, another great catch. But 2 plays where he slowed up or stopped his route and even the INT that they dropped if you noticed he and Palmer were talking about it which makes me think Palmer felt he ran a bad route that let the DB jump that. Next play was an out complete to him for a first down and Palmer made that "ive got my eyes on you" gesture as if see if you run the route right I'll put it on you, if you round it off he's going to see it coming.

Yeah Russ I rewatched parts of the game afterwards & there's no doubt DJ was held by Greenway & I'm shocked it was missed.

 

[Austin Zonie]

I disagree that Carolina has an equivalent receiving corps — Amendola and Edelman would both start for Carolina walking in the door.

The rushing disparity is mostly about Tom Brady being a better passer and the majority of that difference is Cam Newton's rushing yardage.

Receiving corp today. Edelman isn't included in that. I agree that Amendola is better than any WR on Carolina's roster. Even that is debatable when you think about Amendola's production previous to coming to NE. Brady has elevated his stats, even more so since the Edelman injury.

Which team has a better offense? Patriots with Cam at QB or Panthers with Brady at QB?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree that Belicheck is a better coach than Rivera and NE would have that advantage, but the Panthers have had much better run support and about equal receiving threats - from a talent perspective. Brady gets more out of the passing game with about the same level of talent, IMO. Carolina has just under double the rushing yards as the Pats - 1703 (4th) vs 1062 (28th).

This is an interesting question: Who has the better receiving core today (TEs excluded - and Olsen is as close to Gronk as you're going to get, IMO), NE or Car? I suppose you give the nod to NE solely based on Amendola. Ginn and LaFell are probably a wash (both drop balls too frequently).

You don't think Cam being an option to do EVERYTHING on the field opens up the running game? And even though Olsen is the 2nd best TE in the game, there's no comparing him to Gronk when healthy. Gronk is a superstar, a guy teams gameplan around. Olsen is a very good TE, but they're not in the same league. And Amendola/Edelman are leagues ahead of the absolute garbage WRs the Panthers have.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Receiving corp today. Edelman isn't included in that. I agree that Amendola is better than any WR on Carolina's roster. Even that is debatable when you think about Amendola's production previous to coming to NE. Brady has elevated his stats, even more so since the Edelman injury.

Which team has a better offense? Patriots with Cam at QB or Panthers with Brady at QB?

I think it's a toss up. They both have very few weapons at their disposal right now as is, and yet both are leading their teams to 31 ppg. People bag on the Panthers like their offense is the second coming of 2001 Ravens and their D is just as good. But that isn't how the team is winning. Their Defense is very good, but it's not some all-time dominant squad, but their O is scoring a ton of points.

 

[Austin Zonie]

You don't think Cam being an option to do EVERYTHING on the field opens up the running game? And even though Olsen is the 2nd best TE in the game, there's no comparing him to Gronk when healthy. Gronk is a superstar, a guy teams gameplan around. Olsen is a very good TE, but they're not in the same league. And Amendola/Edelman are leagues ahead of the absolute garbage WRs the Panthers have.

Absolutely. Cam being a great rushing QB opens up the offense. His average passing holds him back from the other QBs I've listed, IMO. All the receivers you mention, save Amendola, aren't currently playing in NE.

Cam is a very good QB and one that will most likely continue to get better, especially with Benjamin back next year.

Again, value is a difficult thing to objectively determine, but for me, Cam isn't having an MVP season. Has there ever been an MVP with anything close to being 29th in completion %, 18th in passing yards, tied for 6th in passing TDs, tied for 11th most INTs (10)?

The rushing stats are superb for a QB. #1 rushing (26 yards ahead of Wilson) and he has the most rushing TDs by far. Is this enough to offset the average passing stats?

I don't agree that he is the only offensive weapon in Carolina. Olsen and Stewart are having great years. Who knows what Olsen would look like with Brady as a QB.